Grand National - less Cadillacs at show field - a developing trend?

[Cape Cod Fleetwood]

And no I don't have a corvette, but I do have a 100% original Colt 1944 production M1911A1 and a few 100% original M1 Garands.

And I would be pleased to meet you and your Garands on a field of honor with my NM M1A when I get to Florida!

\m/
Laurie

[cadillacmike68]

And I would be pleased to meet you and your Garands on a field of honor with my NM M1A when I get to Florida!

\m/
Laurie

Hmmm. I have one of those too, with a NM stock, but not a complete NM. But it Is pre-ban with the flash suppressor, bayo lug, etc.  And i have one in pieces just waiting for me to put it all together.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Bruce between Mecum and BJ, I'll take Mecum everytime. If its a 3 day auction, all the 'blue collar' cars go on Friday. If you have a moderate job, you can get a cool cruiser for a reasonable price. Their color commentators are excellent. I was going to attend a BJ auction in CT, it was like $200 (or some insane amount) just to get in the door as a spectator. Its $20 at Mecum. And thing that absolutely shucks my corn about BJ is their 'commentators' TOUCHING the cars while on the block. You never touch the cars... argh.
Laurie

G'day Laurie,

If I had known you were going to be at BJ's the other week at the Indian Casino, I would have made it a point to meet you there as I was in Coventry, CT for a week (picking up parts) before returning home.   (Those '70's Eldorado Trunk torsion bars are really long)

I tried to catch up with a few members as I drove 1,400 miles in my hire car, and those I did call in on, made the trip an even more pleasant experience.

Bruce.

[Jason Edge]

But the judges will look down their nose at it, and I'm Not Paying for that to happen again.

Mike, the judge's don't look down their noses at any car. At least not on any judging team I have been on. We simply go over a car and deduct points based on operation (do the components work), authenticity (is it in as delivered new condition), workmanship, and condition.  For 1966 and prior cars, there are 106 categories for non-convertibles and 112 for convertibles; for 1967 and later cars there are 115 categories for non-convertible cars and 122 for convertibles.  Deductions are made from 0 to 5 points in each category.

If you do the math you have a potential of well over 500 points to be deducted spanning several criteria, not just authenticity.  For your 1968 convertible you would have 610 points that could be deducted. That means if you entered Touring you could receive deductions of 122 points (0.2 x 610) and still win a 1st place which only requires a score of 80.   The few items you listed are a drop in the bucket of the things we go over and again authenticity is just 1 of 4 criteria we look at. 

So you have a chrome aftermarket alternator. That is 3 point deduction, got some aftermarket clamps.. that's 1 point each under authenticity. You still have a long way to go to rack up over 122 points.  But.. show up with a car that has had zero prep, and has an engine and every component covered in grease and dirt. That can range in a deduction of 1 to 4 points in each of the 30 engine compartment categories  and quickly overshadow a few authenticity items.   

There are 23 operational categories that have nothing to do with authenticity. You have items like wipers, radio, antenna, lights, power seats, power windows, convertible top, etc., and if you have several that simply do not work, those can add up fast.  Again, the few authenticity issues are a drop in the bucket compared to all items we look at.

Back to the comment about judges looking down their noses. There are often many cars that show up and enter Primary (and Touring) that are otherwise very nice but have had a few changes from "as new" to make them more drivable.   This is always understood and completely respected by the judges. When the Judges Team Captain goes over authenticity items with the owner it is in a respectful manner.  On the San Marcos judging team, we had a very nice car, but owner acknowledge he had made changes to make it more drivable. It was mutually understood and respected between owner and team.  There was no looking down our nose at the car. Quite the contrary, we were all extremely impressed with the car.  He took home a 2nd Place Primary which if he had entered Touring would have been a 1st place.

[35-709]

Thank you, Jason.  There have been too many exaggerations, examples of misinformation, half-truths, and outright ignorance of how the CLC judging system works on this most tiresome thread. 

[Scot Minesinger]

All,

Do not worry about judging if it the least bit distressing.  bring the car for display, not to be judged.  If it is your first GN you can get an idea what the show is about.  Also, judging is work - you have to empty trunk, clean it thoroughly before and etc. 

If anyone brings a car to GN it must be registered in advance, and you have to decide modified or not, judge or not, and if judged what class touring or primary.

On Mike's1968 Cadillac, it would be wonderful to bring to GN based on your description.  Given the choice between modified and not modified, I would say it is not. 

Point is for the sake of a strong CLC please bring a car.

Do not fret over what other people may think about your car, provided you like it that should be fine.  Even a perfect 1959 Eldorado will not be liked by at least one member.  Members issuing their opinion on this post about what they prefer should not be taken as deciding factor in the choice to bring a car to GN.   

[Cape Cod Fleetwood]

Hmmm. I have one of those too, with a NM stock, but not a complete NM. But it Is pre-ban with the flash suppressor, bayo lug, etc.  And i have one in pieces just waiting for me to put it all together.

glass bedded barrel, must have. Walnut? NM sights?
Sportsmans Outdoor Super Store has some every now and then, not as elusive
as rotors for 1970. The 'super match' line is lovely, I just didn't need that level of
possible accuracy since I don't see myself ever going to Camp Perry.

\m/
Laurie

[Dan LeBlanc]

Wow.  Leave to go away for a few days, spend some time getting caught up on new posts, and come back to find nothing new has been said with a ton more posts.

[Cape Cod Fleetwood]

G'day Laurie,

If I had known you were going to be at BJ's the other week at the Indian Casino, I would have made it a point to meet you there as I was in Coventry, CT for a week (picking up parts) before returning home.   (Those '70's Eldorado Trunk torsion bars are really long)

I tried to catch up with a few members as I drove 1,400 miles in my hire car, and those I did call in on, made the trip an even more pleasant experience.

Bruce.

Oh Bruce I did 'not' go, too expensive just to walk around! But you weren't far from where I live on Cape Cod, maybe an hour. It would have been my pleasure to host you here on the Irish Rivera!

ANYONE from here who's going to be on/near Cape Cod please let me know, would love to meet up with you folks, my door is always open to Cadillac people.

\m/
Laurie!

[cadillacmike68]

Mike, the judge's don't look down their noses at any car. At least not on any judging team I have been on. We simply go over a car and deduct points based on operation (do the components work), authenticity (is it in as delivered new condition), workmanship, and condition...

...Back to the comment about judges looking down their noses. There are often many cars that show up and enter Primary (and Touring) that are otherwise very nice but have had a few changes from "as new" to make them more drivable.   This is always understood and completely respected by the judges. When the Judges Team Captain goes over authenticity items with  the owner it is in a respectful manner...

Jason, I've been a CLC judge, and when I brought my 1968 out, the judging team never even bothered to "discuss" anything with me. They didn't even speak to me at all about the car. My other car, the team did speak with me, but there was a remark on the forms about needing to clean the engine compartment.  Well it rained the night before, quite hard, while i was using that car to take my wife to dinner, so yeah it got dirty. We went out every night and it rained every night. There was NO time to do anything that morning. There is / was supposed to be an allowance for the cars getting dirtied up some on the way to the GN. It even poured that day inn the middle of the meet.

The only item that didn't work in the 1968 was the clock, and that has since been corrected. Every deduction had to either be authenticity or appearance.

Yeah, some of the chrome is slightly pitted, but not rusted. I like it that way. And I don't have $8-10,000 to re-chrome everything. And If I did, I'd buy another 1995-96 Fleetwood or a 1992 Brougham instead.

So i decided - no more of this for me.

[cadillacmike68]

Wow.  Leave to go away for a few days, spend some time getting caught up on new posts, and come back to find nothing new has been said with a ton more posts.

There's always the administrator "lock" button.. This is almost as good as the CMP 1911 threads. I have some popcorn on order for that one.

[Jason Edge]

Jason, I've been a CLC judge, and when I brought my 1968 out, the judging team never even bothered to "discuss" anything with me. They didn't even speak to me at all about the car.

I judged 4 times under the old Judging Guidelines and once this past GN under the new 2018 Judging Guidelines. Under both old and new, when we approach an owner, we as a team are instructed to be cordial, and polite, and make our introductions to the owner. From there it is the Team Captain's role to go over authenticity items and answer questions.  We have a lot to cover and ... you know how we Cadillac guys can get very chatty.  The owner is also asked to assist during the operations phase, but again that comes from the Team Captain. If your Team Captain did not go over authenticity deductions that is unfortunate and not how it is supposed to be per the Judging Manual.

So that is the way it is supposed to work, but unfortunately we humans are not all the same and no one is perfect. It is the Chief Judges goal to pick the best team captains and best teams to know that particular class of car AND follows the guidelines. In the imperfect world we live in that does not happen 100% of the time.

So, what can we do to address discrepancies in general and shoot for a very high standard of judging? Well, the relatively new Judges Recognition Program is one step in that direction.  Points are assigned for judging, serving as Captain, attending seminars, and workshops, with more points earned for the more ambitious activities. We also now do surveys by the Team Captain of the Team, and conversely by the Team of the Team Captain.  This does not take away your less than satisfactory experience in the past, and will not guarantee perfection every time going forward, but it does mean we are taking steps to try as much as possible to prevent bad experiences like this in the future.

The old judging process was good... the new process is better!  I would encourage everyone to read it cover to cover.  I skipped out on the GN last year and was only familiar with the old method, and was a bit nervous, but read it twice cover to cover before arriving in Texas, and was very impressed.

[cadillacmike68]

Jason, I was four or 5 cars down the row judging the 1965-66 cars. I left a LARGE note on the windshield stating where I was.

The team judging 1968 never even bothered to send someone over to get me. How could they have even verified operation, etc??

That was wrong on all counts.

At least the team judging the 1996 came over and found me so I could go back to the car, and that was two rows away.

[chrisntam]

The Cubs playing tonight?

[Scot Minesinger]

Mike,

At noon on Saturday at GN in KY, join me with your wife and my girlfriend for a fun vodka tonic while we stroll thru the show.  It will by 5pm somewhere.  Leave the judging alone, that is what I did and it is way better. 

The point is bring a Cadillac or LaSalle to the GN 2019 in KY!  It is about a 600 mile drive and 8 hours for me if step on it.

[Highwayman68]

I am going to try to attend this year in Kentucky, last year fell apart because of Freeze plugs and exhaust issues days before Virginia.

Hopefully as a daily driver that isn't driven daily but made it to Louisville KY it will be welcomed . I don't care about being judged, just hope it can be parked where others will appreciate it.

[Barry M Wheeler #2189]

Mark, Let me tell you a story. At our GN in Denver several years ago, there was a 1955 CDV, light cream colored (so any defects would show up really well), that myself and my fellow Past Presidents of the Club judged in the Preservation Class. (Best Original Cars.) This car had a bad scrape all the way down the right side of it. But, we still thought that it was the best original car in it's grouping. Also, in 1991 in Cincinnati, there was a black 1953 Eldorado. The chrome on the grill was so bad it was almost totally black and the (original) Orlon top was a little ragged. But it too, we judged that it was a Best Original.

If we can look beyond such glaring defects and still give such cars a coveted Award, don't you think that we welcome ALL of your much loved Cadillacs and LaSalles, no matter what little (or big) defects they have? You think it's special, and so do we. I promise that I'll look for it.

[David King (kz78hy)]

We have had speakers before and I think that's a notion that should be investigated more fully. I plan to mention it next month at our planning meeting for next year. Maybe we can get someone great if we give them a case of Jim Beam.

As far as the host hotel being sold out quickly, I think much of the reason is that we have a lot of overseas members attend. Reserve your room ASAP. If you don't come, call and cancel it. You don't have to pay for it up front. And, the committee has had lots of experience on how many rooms to set aside. Last year was an exception, mainly as it was in the nation's capitol.

And remember, don't let your suggestions languish on the Forum. If you don't present them to the Committee Members or officers, they will not get addressed. How many members chimed in on this thread? Two dozen? What you say here might be noticed, or it might not. If you feel strongly about something, let someone who might be able to make a change know about it.

I was at the GN in TX, during the welcome reception Lyndon Lie, Chief Engineer for the CT6, came and gave a quick talk to the gathering.  For the 1st 3 or 4 minutes, the crowd would not shut up.  I felt bad for him, and not just because I am part of his team, it was just rude treatment to any guest speaker.  Unknown to the crowd, he had to make a special trip to do this as he was just back from China and really had to make a effort to represent Cadillac that day.  For those that hung with us afterwords, you were treated to a really in depth presentation of my 2018 Super Cruise CT6 which I borrowed from GM's captured test fleet for the the drive to TX and back.  Lyndon was very gracious regarding the welcome reception, but he is a class guy.

We need to do better.

David King

[cadillacmike68]

Mark, Let me tell you a story. At our GN in Denver several years ago, there was a 1955 CDV, light cream colored (so any defects would show up really well), that myself and my fellow Past Presidents of the Club judged in the Preservation Class. (Best Original Cars.) This car had a bad scrape all the way down the right side of it. But, we still thought that it was the best original car in it's grouping. Also, in 1991 in Cincinnati, there was a black 1953 Eldorado. The chrome on the grill was so bad it was almost totally black and the (original) Orlon top was a little ragged. But it too, we judged that it was a Best Original.

If we can look beyond such glaring defects and still give such cars a coveted Award, don't you think that we welcome ALL of your much loved Cadillacs and LaSalles, no matter what little (or big) defects they have? You think it's special, and so do we. I promise that I'll look for it.

Well, If we go to KY (still need to find a hotel immediately adjacent to the host one that meets our requirements), we'll bring 1 or 2 cars, And I'll enter them, and I'll sign up to judge the earlier 60s cars like last time, and I would Expect that the judging teams have the professionalism that the ones in 2012 lacked to find me when it's time to judge my cars.

The 1968 had been painted at least twice, so it's not eligible for any preservation class, and the 1996 while not re-painted is too new for such a class, there is probably no preservation class for that car year yet. But I'm trying to keep it pristine and not run the miles up on it too much, so that when it gets to be 30, it will still look and run as good as it does now.

[cadillacmike68]

Didn't  Johnny Unitas go to Louisville?  I might be wrong.

He was by far the best QB EVER. No modern QB from the past 30 years would have lasted 3 quarters in one of those late 50s early 60s games. End of discussion.