Revised Judging Standards for Touring Classes

[jdemerson]

The April issue of Self-Starter includes a column by Chief Judge Bill Anderson on revised judging standards for cars entered in the Touring Classes. The changes will be in effect at the Louisville Grand National. Based on that article, the changes are these:

• Adoption of the shorter and simpler 200-point judging form used before 2017
• Less time needed to judge cars "regularly driven for pleasure without trying to maintain 'as new' condition"
• No deduction for radial tires
• No deduction for 6-volt to 12-volt conversion
• No deduction for drum brake to disc brake conversion
• Scoring change to 90 points for First Place, 80 points for Second Place, and 70 points for Third Place (as opposed to 0, 70, 60, resp.)
• Continuation of standard that "condition, appearance, equipment, authenticity, operability, cleanliness" should be as originally delivered
• Continuation of standard that only Cadillac-approved accessories may be used

The exceptions listed above are in addition to permitted exceptions already in effect for both Primary and Touring classes:

• Seat belts and shoulder belts
• Dual-reservoir master cylinders
• Added turn signals
• High-mount stoplights
• Matching second taillight
• Driving aids for handicapped persons

See page 92 of 2019 International Membership Directory for further details on the existing exceptions.

Several of us urged these changes for the Touring Classes, along with a few others to enhance maintainability and drivability while minimally sacrificing authenticity. The changes for Touring Classes are a welcome big step forward. We owe Bill and the Judging Committee our thanks for their work leading to these changes.

John Emerson
1952 Cadillac Sedan 6219X

[Cape Cod Fleetwood]

"No deduction for radial tires"

Well done.

\m/
Laurie

[Scot Minesinger]

This is a positive, I agree

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

I agree, and hopefully will see more vehicles transfering to the "Useable" class.

Bruce.

[Bill Young]

Changes that encourage driving these cars I am all for.

[Caddy Wizard]

I am very glad to see these changes.  Excellent.

[jdemerson]

As the O.P, I'll add an important reason why I think these steps are in the right direction: They move the Touring Class Cadillacs away from being "consolation prize" also-rans, and toward being recognized for their value/appeal/excellence in their own right.

Touring Class will now use 90/80/70 point cutoffs for 1st/2nd/3rd prize -- the same scale as for Primary Classes. In one sense the change is compensation for no longer deducting points for such things as radial tires, 12-volt conversions, and disc brake conversions.  So modest deviations from strict authenticity are permitted to make cars more "usable" in today's world. But the commitment to keeping the appearance and most mechanicals as originally delivered to the new car buyer is effectively maintained.

Eventually, I'd like to see the list of changes permitted in Touring to be expanded a little further to permit other changes that enhance safety, drivability, and maintainability. I hope the shift being made turns out to be a resounding success,  and encourages folks to enter their "drivers", that are in most ways very original in appearance and effect, at the shows as judged vehicles in Touring Classes.

John Emerson

[Jeff Wilk]

My Son and I are sooooo thrilled to see these real world changes after being disqualified in Lake George for our 59 Fleetwood being TOO NICE for a Touring Car. I guess it still stings. Happy to see these changes!!!

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

My Son and I are sooooo thrilled to see these real world changes after being disqualified in Lake George for our 59 Fleetwood being TOO NICE for a Touring Car. I guess it still stings. Happy to see these changes!!!

The 90 point disqualification rule for Touring Class had since been eliminated so this would no longer apply.

The revised judging standards for Touring Class alone wouldn't have made any difference in 2014.

[Cape Cod Fleetwood]

This is why I don't participate at shows that judge. I like to work on, look at and drive my cars, and even though some of mine could easily compete and probably win, I find that the contests are often rigged by different rules to favor the club members who write them.
Being disqualified because your car is "too nice" in someones opinion, or because of added safety equipment on a driver is just asinine and a detriment to the entire hobby.

I think the 'fix is in' at local/misc car shows, the Jamestown Jack Stand Car Club, etc. I saw that for myself in just one year of attending local events. It was funny to see a non-member show up at a local misc show with a PRISTINE/show room 68 Shelby, it had to get the 68-70 trophy. When I took The Ark to another misc local show it should have got 'something' (bad roof and all) in the 70-74 class after looking at all the others. The trophy went to the club member with the dented, rusted, lousy interior Trans Am. I'm not a member of either of the previous 2 local clubs. I'd like to think with Cadillac shows, the judging is being done 'by the book', and not letting the owners membership impact the results.

\m/
Laurie

[Scot Minesinger]

The best part of cars shows is looking at the other cars, talking to owners, driving there, enjoying the weather and for anything but being judged.  So, there is the option to just participate in the show as a "display only", problem solved.

However, I think the touring class rules that welcome cars that can be driven to the show is a step in the right direction.

Humans are competitive, but for me I've let go of this one, as it is just not enjoyable anymore.  I have taken a second at GN with my Cadillac in primary and a few thirds, so I own a car that can compete.  It is just more fun not to.

[Cape Cod Fleetwood]

The best part of cars shows is looking at the other cars, talking to owners, driving there, enjoying the weather and for anything but being judged.  So, there is the option to just participate in the show as a "display only", problem solved.

However, I think the touring class rules that welcome cars that can be driven to the show is a step in the right direction.

Humans are competitive, but for me I've let go of this one, as it is just not enjoyable anymore.  I have taken a second at GN with my Cadillac in primary and a few thirds, so I own a car that can compete.  It is just more fun not to.

Scot, proven winners always have more fun just hanging out and not competing, we've already won. Like when I'd go to shooting competitions to coach people, it was a blast, way more fun that competing. But I'm also saying that as someone who was on TV, on the cover of magazines, sponsored by several manufacturers, etc. The pressure is 'off', so the event is more fun, cars or shooting.

What I love about the changes to the Touring division is it may/should encourage those who show up as "display only" to enter their cars in their Touring class. Not to mention the changes make the cars safer, more 'drive-able'. And isn't DRIVING these cars the whole point? Well done judging committee, well done.

\m/
Laurie

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

One mustn't forget that the cars are driven out of the showroom when the deal is done.

Bruce.

[gkhashem]

While everyone is celebrating about the new rules. How can an all original car compete against a slightly modified dolled up car? One that has electronic ignitions, radial tires, disc brakes, repainted engine compartment, after market stereos and a nice new paint job.

So why in the world do I want to take my all original car that has the correct tires and is all original down to the last nut and bolt. Do I now need to paint my engine, maybe put down a new paint job to compete?

I cannot win with my 1959 original against a restored 1959! So I cannot enter in the regular class. I have been there and done that at the Oldsmobile Nationals. I won a first but not best of class since I refused to paint my engine.

So now I am stuck in no man's land against dolled up cars with bagged rear ends.

So the CLC is actually going to discourage some highly original cars from coming now? Or just come to display.

The better solution would have been 2 touring classes. Original and slightly modified. Now my car with a few flaws in the paint and some flaws under the hood will be penalized. I would not do it but now some fools will take an original car and destroy it to win a trophy.

Now all of you who want to bash this opinion think about it before you start. While you made easier for others you have penalized another group.

I thought the CLC grand national should encourage unrestored originals. How is anyone going to correctly restore a car with these cars not being shown and seen. And do not say the authenticity manual since they are not 100% correct.

[cadillacmike68]

At big National shows some standardization of judging takes place. You have to have a way to separate the pepper from the fly sht. But at our local Caddy show and everyone I've been too unless  notified it will be an officially judged show as Caddy National or AACA Are mostly peer judged or some form like that. In shows where Caddy would tend to be perhaps the least appreciated auto among a swamp of other cars of every make, expecting that your car will win in its class against a good old boy network, or some other make that holds sway  is naive in my view. Most of the local Caddy shows are designed around having fun, meeting old friends , talking Cadillac. And to a fault, they all do that.  Bring it out, drive it have fun. Anything else is just frosting on the cake, nothing more.

Thanks for calling all of our cars fly sh!t 

[gkhashem]

Thanks for calling all of our cars fly sh!t 

That's not what he was saying.

So I will translate for the sensitive.

He is saying without rules, no standards how do you separate the wheat from the chaff?

I did not see you are mentioned in the post or am I missing something here?

[gkhashem]

Also someone mentioned the cars being driveable?

Well if you fix the car, shouldn't it be driveable as intended. I just do not get someone who wants to make an old car like a new car? Want a new car, buy one.

I really am not into a 1930s car, It is not real fun to drive for me, but others like it. I can understand why since they want to experience the car as it was made, not some fantasy as how they wish it were today.

They make kit cars for that.

[quadfins]

I cannot win with my 1959 original against a restored 1959! So I cannot enter in the regular class. I have been there and done that at the Oldsmobile Nationals. I won a first but not best of class since I refused to paint my engine.

So now I am stuck in no man's land against dolled up cars with bagged rear ends.

So the CLC is actually going to discourage some highly original cars from coming now? Or just come to display.


No, That is what the Past Presidents Original cars category is for. IMHO, That should be considered the top-notch category.

Otherwise, how many categories and subcategories do we break into.

Look at the Mustang Club of America, if you want to see a nightmare in judging categories.

Jim

[Scot Minesinger]

I have a very original 1970 SDV with 39k miles on it, no rust, original paint that is OK, and a perfect original vinyl top.  The interior is very nice too.  I made all of the mechanical systems as new, and consider it to be a very show worthy car at the time of purchase.  I got sick of my red repainted 1970 DVC being beat at shows by the sedans, needed another classic, and so if you cannot beat them join them.  This was when originality was highly prized.  Then the rules got changed and to place respectably I have to repaint it - pass.  Hence my display only for GN shows.  If I painted it, the rules would probably change again back to favoring original cars.  I'm terrible at timing the rules.  Oh well, in other aspects of life I have been fortunate.

[Dan LeBlanc]

While everyone is celebrating about the new rules. How can an all original car compete against a slightly modified dolled up car? One that has electronic ignitions, radial tires, disc brakes, repainted engine compartment, after market stereos and a nice new paint job.

So why in the world do I want to take my all original car that has the correct tires and is all original down to the last nut and bolt. Do I now need to paint my engine, maybe put down a new paint job to compete?

I cannot win with my 1959 original against a restored 1959! So I cannot enter in the regular class. I have been there and done that at the Oldsmobile Nationals. I won a first but not best of class since I refused to paint my engine.

So now I am stuck in no man's land against dolled up cars with bagged rear ends.

So the CLC is actually going to discourage some highly original cars from coming now? Or just come to display.

The better solution would have been 2 touring classes. Original and slightly modified. Now my car with a few flaws in the paint and some flaws under the hood will be penalized. I would not do it but now some fools will take an original car and destroy it to win a trophy.

Now all of you who want to bash this opinion think about it before you start. While you made easier for others you have penalized another group.

I thought the CLC grand national should encourage unrestored originals. How is anyone going to correctly restore a car with these cars not being shown and seen. And do not say the authenticity manual since they are not 100% correct.

That's why I say we need to mirror AACA's HPOF program. The first level of HPOF is like primary except for original cars and then they have HPOF Original which is like senior. If I would've known more about this when I had the 61, I might've gone that way instead of class judging but I got a junior and a senior with it so no harm no foul.