Revised Judging Standards for Touring Classes

[Dan LeBlanc]

Thanks for calling all of our cars fly sh!t 

I think the expression is quite appropriate. To the naked eye, pepper and fly crap appear to be identical. It's not until you look at the two specimens in detail that you can distinguish one from the other. Its not saying one is good and one is bad.

And like others have said, sheesh, it's just an expression.

[cadillacmike68]

  So, your throwing a hissy fit. I stand by what I said. The CLC has tough standards for judging.  I support that. Unlike many local show where cars take awards, whatever that may be when you go to a national where many of the finest cadillacs compete two number one cars may square off against each other in their respect classes and have to have to have a way to separate the cars and award a top prize to the top car. It's a euphemism,  seperate the pepper from the fly  droppings. That's not calling all the other cars fly s- - -. . Jesus, calm down.

Have fun at the GN. I won't see you there. I'l be driving my 4,600 lbs of fly sh!t somewhere.

It's the bird poop that has me more concerned, especially when the top is down.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Have fun at the GN. I won't see you there. I'l be driving my 4,600 lbs of fly sh!t somewhere.
It's the bird poop that has me more concerned, especially when the top is down.

I won't be there either, but it is the bugs that stick to the front of the car and windscreen that really annoy me.

Bruce.

PS.   And I too hate the bird droppings.

[cadillacmike68]

^^ Love bug season is just starting here in Florida. 

[35-709]

They have been active here on the east side for a good 3 weeks already and they are still going strong.  One of the worst love-bug seasons I have seen since moving to Vero Beach in 1980.

[gkhashem]

The Past Preservation Award is a nice award, but it is not geared to looking at the condition of the car but the original features of it. There is no strict judging on a points awarded basis. So now I have to take a car not all "dolled up" against a car with a painted engine or a new exterior paint job. The points I lose are lost because of keeping it original while the guys who put lipstick on the car win. I have done that at other events.

The preservation award is like the icing on the cake. So for those of us who work at keeping it original while not having a "show" car are being penalized here.

I am tired of beating my head against the wall trying to explain this situation.

Dan's post above gets it. Some others here just don't get it or most likely don't care for their own reasons.

You have now taken touring and kind of made it a "slighty" modified class and kicked all the original cars with minor flaws to the curb. Since they will lose to the shiny "modified" car. So where do these cars go? Not to the primary class where they cannot compete with a show car restored vehicle.

So those who don't care since they don't understand or want to make it so they can enjoy have changed the game so they can play.

I have done this numerous times so I know what I am talking about. You can have opinions but have you experienced this?

Plus the trend here is in opposition to the CLC mission statement. This was not thought out well but just a knee jerk reaction to some complaining.

Dan's suggestion was put better than mine above. Maybe call it Preservation Class for judging and a Touring class for judging. Where the preservation class is judged just as primary but have a lower threshold for 1st place to account for the imperfections of an original car. No need to change any rules since they are the same as primary but the winning scores will be lower. Now you have a new set of exceptions for the touring class which is more work. So my idea involves no special training or rules same as primary.

Then your touring can stay as Mr Anderson has changed it. This change is more work and more complexity but if someone thinks this will encourage more participation fine. This would not impact original cars which by their nature are at a handicap because of age flaws.

There are many of us who want to see these original cars rather than cars that have been changed or altered. I have no interest in these cars but if that floats your boat fine with me.

[Barry M Wheeler #2189]

George, I beg to differ with you about us (The Past Presidents) not looking at originality VS. "all dolled up" cars. In Denver, we gave a yellow CDV with a gouge running all along the RH side of the car a "Most Original" prize. In 1991, we did the same with a 1953 Eldorado that the grill was nearly black with corrosion and a ratty top. I think it was in Albany that there was a 1965 Fleetwood with dull maroon paint. At the same show, we walked back and forth between Al Lindemann's 1941 convertible and a 1941 Series 61 gray sedan. (This was back before we gave multiple "Firsts.") Both had dull paint.

Candidly, when looking at your cars, I don't really look all that hard. Mainly because they are "Mary Poppins" cars. Practically perfect in every way. Any car that beats out one of yours must be a jewel indeed. When you finally get a '41, I hope I get to look at it as it's gonna' be nice!

All I can say is "We try." We have a range of 117 years to judge. ALL over the field. (That's why we get golf carts, not because we are "High Poobahs." Most judges have what? Up to four years? We appreciate you guys keeping the cars original if possible. And, we enjoy seeing your efforts.

[gkhashem]

Barry

I was not referring to the Past President's award as looking at dolled up cars. I was referring to that concerning the touring class judging and the new rules concerning the cars entered in touring. The PPA is not really relevant to the point. Someone above had tried to substitute the PPA for the touring class judging. It is not the same issue.

These original cars will now have to be almost show in many cases to compete on the scoring sheets I m not referring to the Past President's award. I can understand these cars not being perfect to be original as you gave examples of in your reply.

So I am referring to those touring cars when they are entered in the scoresheet touring class. So you can have a very very nice original but it will be doomed to maybe not make 90 points since now the new touring standard for 1st is 90 points plus. So older the original, the more flaws you will have that's just the way it is. So no longer does the original save points on being Cadillac correct but will lose to the dolled up cars that will now be in touring class. Since the original may lose points for some paint flaws or an unpainted engine but the dolled up car will not nor will it lose points for deviations from original Cadillac stock factory.

I guess I am not communicating my point well.

[Barry M Wheeler #2189]

I guess I was too busy ducking bird droppings to pay full attention to the direction of the thread. I may enter the '91 Seville and see how it scores in Touring. It's got one tiny dimple in the side stainless and the bumpers are faded some, and the fabric on the A pillars is faded. And an after market radio put in before I got it. It still should get close to 90 or above if I work at it.

[76eldo]

George,

You have a beautiful all original 59 Coupe. It more than qualifies for the Past Presidents award. If it’s got minor flaws who cares how it scores in any judging in any of the classes. It’s all original and you want to leave it alone. Two of my cars are just like that.  They are totally original and I am not going to change a thing.  You don’t need a little plastic award to validate the worth of your car, and I’m not talking about dollars.  How many of those cars are roaming this planet? 

Maybe they will get to a judged class for original cars but they would be hard to judge and it would be very hard to substantiate exactly what’s original.

The GN’s are fun. I like seeing lots of Cadillacs in one place and talking to lots of people.  Sometimes you win an award and that’s nice. We had a great time in Lake George and I brought my 60 Convert which is just a driver car.  Real nice car but not like a freshly restored trailer queen. In the 59 and 60 class there are lots of those. I looked up and down the row and knew I had no chance at any award and really didn’t care. 

When you know what you have and truly love your car you don’t need a third party to judge your car to make you love it.

Brian

[gkhashem]

Brian

I totally agree with what you have said. I don't need validation but I kind of enjoy the competition as far as making that original as good as I can.

So in a way I would do the things I do to the car anyways as  making sure all the buttons work and the car runs well. I have everything working except the clock and the windshield washer. I am working on that clock now. Just hard to get that wing nut free.

So my goal is to max the points in judging.So what I would do under the prior rules were to keep it original and make everything work as new. I will not paint it or redo the interior or those cosmetic things to max out my points. But now since the "playing field" is now tilted to the restored and "modified" touring cars since they have a freer hand to improve the cosmetics by repainting and restoring to some extent.

When this happens all I can say is the original car under judging will tend to lose more points than the "restored", "slightly modified" non original cars. Since I will not paint or alter the original car while those who don't have an original car will and thus have a built in advantage.

This decreases my incentive to enter a car such as mine in touring class. Which leaves me with only the preservation PP award entry.

[jdemerson]

While everyone is celebrating about the new rules. How can an all original car compete against a slightly modified dolled up car? One that has electronic ignitions, radial tires, disc brakes, repainted engine compartment, after market stereos and a nice new paint job.

So why in the world do I want to take my all original car that has the correct tires and is all original down to the last nut and bolt. Do I now need to paint my engine, maybe put down a new paint job to compete?

I cannot win with my 1959 original against a restored 1959! So I cannot enter in the regular class. I have been there and done that at the Oldsmobile Nationals. I won a first but not best of class since I refused to paint my engine.

So now I am stuck in no man's land against dolled up cars with bagged rear ends.

So the CLC is actually going to discourage some highly original cars from coming now? Or just come to display.

The better solution would have been 2 touring classes. Original and slightly modified. Now my car with a few flaws in the paint and some flaws under the hood will be penalized. I would not do it but now some fools will take an original car and destroy it to win a trophy.

Now all of you who want to bash this opinion think about it before you start. While you made easier for others you have penalized another group.

I thought the CLC grand national should encourage unrestored originals. How is anyone going to correctly restore a car with these cars not being shown and seen. And do not say the authenticity manual since they are not 100% correct.

George,

   With all sincere respect for your opinion and your strong defense of unrestored original cars, I wonder if you have read and understand the new rules for Touring Class? Your analysis doesn't seem to relate to the changes and perhaps new directions for Touring classes. I just re-read Chief Judge Anderson's article in the current Self-Starter, and also the original post in this thread (full disclosure--I was its author). The substantive changes are: permitting use of radial tires, permitting 6-volt to 12-volt conversions, and permitting upgrades to disc brakes. These "modifications" seem entirely appropriate for Touring Classes whose cars are driven and enjoyed by their owners. And they don't seem so far out of line with longstanding existing rules for Primary classes that permit seatbelts, dual master cylinders, and a few other modifications for safety.

     Some observations:

• There are NO changes for Primary Classes
• Changes in Touring do not refer to cosmetics of a vehicle (painting engine compartments, shininess of paint)
• As far as I know, there's no mention of electronic ignitions (though I personally would favor a change like that)
• The changes do not in any way encourage "destroying an original car to win a trophy". As an owner of a '52, I am certain that adding radial tires of the right size/style/whitewall, or changing to 12 volt, would NOT destroy the car.
• Whether or not a 1952 Cadillac has "proper design" radials, or has a 12-volt electrical system would have no impact either way on the points received in judging

   I have been an advocate of more clearly and logically distinguishing Touring from Primary, without in any way changing Primary. As an aside, I note that my own '52 (a driver in every sense of the word) does NOT have radials, is STILL 6 volt, and does NOT have disc brakes or dual master cylinders. Frankly, I wish it did have all these modifications, but there are no such plans for the near term...

   I've not judged at a Grand National, but have judged at two Fall Festivals. I have volunteered to judge at the Louisville GN, but don't know if I'll have a chance to judge cars entered in Touring. We'll have to see how the changes work out as they are tried for the first time.

   Finally, I want to express the strongest endorsement for your appreciation for all unrestored, unmolested original Cadillacs! I wish I could say that mine fit that description.

Best wishes,
John Emerson   
1952 Cadillac Sedan 6219X

[gkhashem]

Again! This will be my last try to express the point while subtle will factor into the judging.

While touring cars are by definition more driven. Now you can take a somewhat restored modified car which would lose points for not keeping the car to factory specs not lose multiple points for the non factory items.

So if we have a "modified" car that has a nicer paint job, nicely painted engine will now crowd out or outscore that original car. The original might be very nice, but cannot beat the dolled up "modified" car. That modified car might have a nicer paint job or a cleaner looking painted engine due to the fact the original car owner does not want to cover up the real thing.

People will naturally score the "dolled" up car higher and pick on the scratches in the original car's paint or the slight imperfection in the interior. So now the original car will lose generally on the cosmetics but no longer be able to survive on originality alone. Since no longer do you lose points for non factory items.

You have basically oiled the squeaky wheel here and penalized another group. So while you made someone else happy you have penalized another group of cars.

You see that original 1959 cannot compete against the numerous 1959 trailer queens. Which now leaves these types of car really relegated to the Past Presidents Award, which is nice but a non scoring competition.

So do not take this as some kind of sour grapes, it is not. To be honest, even if I was the richest man in the world I would rather have that original #2/3 car over any show car any day of the week.

What really should have happened was to split the touring class into 2 groups. One as is and one as you have changed it. Where do guys who have driver's that are original now go? Now is that extra work no, since your new class has all the changes for the judges to learn.

[Scot Minesinger]

Brian and all,

I could not agree with some of your statements more.  Who needs a ten dollar plastic plaque to validate the owner's car to themselves.  One of my friends in the CLC said a while ago that he was not spending 10k on a re-paint to earn a ten dollar trophy.  Everyone should enjoy their cars the way they want.

The CLC does provide for all means of enjoyment almost.  You can display only, touring, primary, and advanced awards.  You can attend GN without a car, and on and on.  It will be impossible to have the judging rules exactly as every entrant in judging would like.  You can please some of the people all of the time...

The only part I don't like is when the GN show field is sparse with show cars, and while the event is well attended, the majority of the attendants view it as someone else's responsibility to bring a show car to the GN even when they are within driving range (one day drive one way).  Maybe I will start a post on this.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Anyone who thinks the forces behind the restoration, preservation and/or maintenance of a classic vehicle to the highest possible standards is purely motivated by an inexpensive physical token commemorating the achievement has sadly missed the point.

[76eldo]

Eric,

I’m saying participate to the level you want whether that’s a 100 point trailer queen or a grungy driver. There are people that want to enjoy their car as a wreath and crown winner and rarely ever drive it, and there are others that simply love these cars and use them the way they see fit.

There are plenty of people in this club they only want that trophy and the bragging rights that go with it.

[Scot Minesinger]

Eric, fortunately I am not smart enough and have "sadly missed the point", but I should be able to retire more comfortably.  Other can get the point and win the trophies - awesome.  Provided the GN 2019 has a full show field it will all be good.  Really looking forward to driving my 1970 Cadillac 1/5th of the way across the USA to GN 2019.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Eric,

I’m saying participate to the level you want whether that’s a 100 point trailer queen or a grungy driver. .

That goes without saying and I'm in 100% agreement.   

There are plenty of people in this club they only want that trophy and the bragging rights that go with it.

Eric, fortunately I am not smart enough and have "sadly missed the point", but I should be able to retire more comfortably.  Other can get the point and win the trophies - awesome.  Provided the GN 2019 has a full show field it will all be good.  Really looking forward to driving my 1970 Cadillac 1/5th of the way across the USA to GN 2019.

Unless someone explicitly states so, I have no idea anybody wants nor would I speculate as to any individual's motivation may be.

Regardless, it's certainly no skin off my nose whatever their reason(s).

Everyone should do their own thing and let everyone else do theirs.

Competition has always been indigenous to the human spirit. Competition has produced most of greatest human accomplishments & achievements and it's this spirit that should be celebrated by those who choose to engage in it. Certain remarks (not by anyone in particular) seem to have a rather judgmental & contemptuous attitude towards this and frankly I find it undermining to one of the core missions of the CLC.

My earlier point was more of a general statement that the supposition that "[for some] it's all about a $x trophy" is incredibly simplistic. It's about achieving greatness and having those efforts recognized by one's peers. That's what the real "award" is. It's not about a physical object. That is all I was trying to get across.

It is no more the case that millions of dollars are spent on breeding, horse flesh, equipage, training etc is done to receive several dozen roses at the Kentucky Derby.

[76eldo]

I agree with all of that. But, the debate began here regarding the updates on the rules for the touring class. I’m not reading these rules as allowing for customization but more like allowing for mechanical upgrades in limited areas.

In my opinion it’s a good move and will hopefully encourage people with driver quality cars to participate in the judging portion of the GN if they want to.

I’ve had restored cars and I’ve been all through the stress of prepping a car for a national event and I’ve won 2nd and 1st in class in nationals with the Packard Club in the 90’s. 

I am glad that the CLC is making room for other cars as well as Primary class.

[Scot Minesinger]

It is good that the rules have opened up a little to encourage more Cadillacs and LaSalles to attend at the GN show fields.

Even though I have participated in P22 at GN's in the past and placed 2nd and 3rd, I "sadly missed the point".  It is most fun for me to bring a car to GN, but not invest the effort to be judged.  It is better for the CLC and GN that I bring a car than not, so whatever floats my boat.

Like Art wrote, gees I'm right, no you are right...I'm out on this post, send in your last words.  We all agree that we can enjoy our cars as we wish.