Revised Judging Standards for Touring Classes

[gkhashem]

I guess my point was that with all this celebration I just think you may have displaced some other car owners.

That was what I was trying to say.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Even though I have participated in P22 at GN's in the past and placed 2nd and 3rd, I "sadly missed the point". 

In your own words, "Who needs a ten dollar plastic plaque to validate the owner's car to themselves.  One of my friends in the CLC said a while ago that he was not spending 10k on a re-paint to earn a ten dollar trophy."

If that is what you think the dedication, time, money, blood, sweat and tears that some put forth in the pursuit of excellence boils down to is a "$10 plastic plaque/trophy" and "self-validation", not only have you missed the point, but is demeaning the efforts of those who may just actually happen to get personal satisfaction from doing so and having their achievements recognized.

And I would also condemn derisive remarks being directed against the "display-only" crowd with equal fervor. 

[gkhashem]

As I watched how the thread "evolved". I would state again that I was just trying to show a downside to the new rules to original drivers.

No direct assault on the changes per se, but it appeared the thread had only a one sided viewpoint on the positive aspects of the changes only.

I was trying to point out another point of view and everyone seems to take it as a personal affront in a strange sort of way.

Makes one just want to not bother and just not get involved. But I have a difficult time just going along with the most vocal if I think they might be not looking at all aspects.

People are very quick to change things because they think they can. Well we also should also ask why are we doing things the way they are. I can see both sides to this but it amazes me that people often just see one side and dig in to their point of view no matter what.

I still think the splitting of the touring class would have been better. (Originals as judged before and the new group with the changes allowed) why discourage anyone, plus do we really think this will make CLC GN more attended?

The attendance has much more to do with the location, the club demographics, and the dates.

[jdemerson]

Again! This will be my last try to express the point while subtle will factor into the judging.

While touring cars are by definition more driven. Now you can take a somewhat restored modified car which would lose points for not keeping the car to factory specs not lose multiple points for the non factory items.

So if we have a "modified" car that has a nicer paint job, nicely painted engine will now crowd out or outscore that original car. The original might be very nice, but cannot beat the dolled up "modified" car. That modified car might have a nicer paint job or a cleaner looking painted engine due to the fact the original car owner does not want to cover up the real thing.

People will naturally score the "dolled" up car higher and pick on the scratches in the original car's paint or the slight imperfection in the interior. So now the original car will lose generally on the cosmetics but no longer be able to survive on originality alone. Since no longer do you lose points for non factory items.

You have basically oiled the squeaky wheel here and penalized another group. So while you made someone else happy you have penalized another group of cars.

You see that original 1959 cannot compete against the numerous 1959 trailer queens. Which now leaves these types of car really relegated to the Past Presidents Award, which is nice but a non scoring competition.

So do not take this as some kind of sour grapes, it is not. To be honest, even if I was the richest man in the world I would rather have that original #2/3 car over any show car any day of the week.

What really should have happened was to split the touring class into 2 groups. One as is and one as you have changed it. Where do guys who have driver's that are original now go? Now is that extra work no, since your new class has all the changes for the judges to learn.

The cars are competing against an absolute standard, and the points earned determine any award to be received. The cars in Touring will not compete against each other any more than cars in Primary are competing against each other. No car can/will "crowd out" any other car. Points earned with a clearly stated scoring system will determine awards if any. So a car that scores 80 points gets a second place trophy quite irrespective of what other cars are entered and how they score. There can in principle be 10 second-place cars in a given class.

George, I'm not trying to pick a fight here -- just trying to be sure everyone on this board understands the revised scoring system that was adopted a few years ago, as well as the modest (and positive) changes in the Touring Classes for this year.

In ALL classes there is far less "getting squeezed out by other cars" than there was back when I was at Lake George. And yes I do recall (with a twinge of sadness) that some cars were "squeezed out" at Lake George for being "too nice". One of those cars just happened to be the car that I purchased a month later and still own today.

I am CERTAIN that Bill Anderson and associates have brought us to a better place than where we were in 2014. And sure, there may well be further improvements to the judging system in the future. Possibly a separate category for completely unrestored originals will emerge; if you advocate that, you should propose it after we see how things go at Louisville.

I would strongly urge those who are following this thread to contact Bill Anderson and volunteer to JUDGE at Louisville or at the Fall Festival in September. More than anything, Bill needs more volunteer judges. And it is a very interesting, challenging, and rewarding activity!

John Emerson

[gkhashem]

I disagree and will leave it to the experts. I know the rules and have read them. The old and the new. I do not need a lesson on them. I know how the game works. In fact, I know I could easily judge some classes and be just as much an expert as some who have judged.

I study my cars and the class they are in. I know originality for the cars I own. I can spot a repainted car better than some so called expert restorers.

As one can see I have won with cars at multiple events. The non winners on my list just have not been to any national shows yet. The GMC truck will be next. They are all original #2 cars.

I have won because I knew what changes to make to my cars to improve them. I played by the rules.

This is hard work and a labor of love of the car, nothing else.

But as someone said above the award is more of an acknowledgement from CLC peers. People who know Cadillacs or whatever make. That's why when I go to the local car shows I expect no acknowledgement at all. If I do that's great.

I have failed to communicate the point I was making here I guess, since the replies have been all over the map.

You are happy with the changes and feel they are an improvement.  That's nice. Time will tell. I suspect 1st places in touring will be given out like candy on Halloween.

There is a tendency by many here to accept no constructive comments at all. None have been given to grind any axe or push any agenda. But when an opinion that comes out that is contrary to the establishment you get flamed in a way.

So enjoy the new changes but you have handicapped the original cars with flaws. Flaws not going to be "dolled up" since dolling them up means painting or redoing interiors. Something that I will not do to a very nice original car. If you have noticed the real area of interest in the top end collector are the unrestored untouched cars. Not the modified ones. I consider modified disc brake, electronic ignition, etc.... Sorry that is modified but you can modify a car if you want but many top end collectors will never consider these cars.

[cadillacmike68]

My 68 will Never get a Senior badge, didn't buy it for that. The 96 is another matter, but I'm about finished with GNs so that car may never see another GN.

I just don't like my cars being referred to as fly sh!t or chaff, just because they haven't or can't win a Senior badge, which by the way, is not made of plastic.

My original Airborne wings from 38 years ago, which were maybe $1 or $2, mean more to me than a CLC Senior badge.

[Cape Cod Fleetwood]

And you say women can argue....

FFS the 'changes' are for safety, and it simply says my radials won't be a deduction any more than your
bias ply will earn more points. 3 pages of whining over SAFETY issues, good grief. You purists lose NOTHING.
We who DRIVE our old cars 'now' lose nothing. It sets a seat at the table for people to enter their cars in shows
now, it may excite more interest in our little club and hobby, ergo bring in more member$. How many really nice 'display only' cars can now compete in Touring instead? Why the FEAR? Respectfully if a set of $1500 radials on a competitor's car is the difference between your car winning and losing, your car might have bigger issues, just a guess.

When chopped, bagged and blown are listed as approved changes in Touring, I'll be the first to start the
riot and lead the revolt.

And no one loves a good chop/bag/blow job more than me.

Go ahead, I dare you... 

\m/
Laurie (really looking forward to a $10 plastic trophy someday when my car represents properly and deserves it.)

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

I just don't like my cars being referred to as fly sh!t or chaff, just because they haven't or can't win a Senior badge, which by the way, is not made of plastic.

Wheat/chaff, pepper/fly s*** are merely metaphors for the fine distinctions that sometimes have to be made between cars of near-identical quality; ie: a 89 point car vs a 88 point car.

The terms are not intended to suggest one is necessarily better than the other. You're interpreting the comparison far too literally.

[gkhashem]

Some comments prove the point, some do not get it.

If you notice I said to split touring into 2 classes. But others here think they are being inclusive while it is just the opposite.

You love the changes, but you have also excluded or at least disadvantaged a group that was included before.

Safety? I drive all my cars, but sorry they really should not be driven everyday if you are that concerned about safety. No 50 year old car is as safe as newer models. No matter what you think or feel about it.

By the way no need to get vulgar or imply it I have heard all those words before. The point can be made using proper language.

Also metaphors seem to be lost on most people today, especially those who are looking for a reason to be offended. Or have no real argument to make since being offended works as a way to cease any intelligent discussion and thus make the offended feel they have "won" the debate.

[Scot Minesinger]

George,

Addressing your last comments only and no others (because otherwise I'm off the post), certainly you make for a very compelling line of reasoning.

I agree that when the rules are opened up in touring the original cars in every way are at a disadvantage.  And since the new primary and upper bracket awards require a re-paint of an original painted car to win top honors, some super nice original cars will not do well.

There are many more touring cars that fit the new rules than not, so I think form a statistical perspective it will be more of a crowd pleaser than a detraction.  I can tell by the way you write and and what others have said that your original cars are amazing.  You are right all original cars are more interesting to investor/collectors than slightly modified cars.  The

It seems that we just have to treat our cars as we deem fit, rather than altering them to meet a set of judging rules which are subject to change.  It is great when the rules align more with how we keep our cars, and in this case it did not with you.  That is OK, the rules may change back.  Frankly IMO cars with original paint, interiors and etc., should be valued more highly in judging than restored cars.

I drive my 49 year old 1970 Cadillacs everywhere, across the GW bridge, Cross Bronx expressway (several ties), and anywhere a modern car will drive.  I have driven my 1970 DVC to NH (and back to VA in one day drive thru rush hour and all, even got caught in the Christie NJ traffic jams) to visit my relatives after both the Boston and Lake George GN's.  The most safe feature about it is that other traffic notices it.  Not too many red 1970 DVC with a white top (most down) out there in normal daily traffic.  And yes I go with the radials, but that is easy to change for the future owner if so inclined.  There is certain pride in being able drive it anywhere.  Planning to drive my 1970 Cadillac to GN in KY this year.

Enjoy your Cadillac!

[gkhashem]

Scott

You do get it. Thanks for the thoughtful reply without the drama. I made the point to express some alternative view on all the euphoria by the other posters. They made it sound like a slam dunk, no brainer. I think it may not be so clean cut.

I feel my 1959 is that good that it may make 90 points in the Primary but it will be at a slight handicap.

I am not afraid to drive my cars I just don't drive them everyday or everywhere.

I have taken my 1959 Cadillac on a 180 mile round trip drive a few times to attend a show with no issues.

One time I went to Brookline MA, right into Boston near Fenway Park but on a Sunday morning. It's just no fun to go into heavy traffic with it since you have to share the road with some not so careful drivers. I even drove it with bias tires and had no fear of not making it.

[cadillacmike68]

Wheat/chaff, pepper/fly s*** are merely metaphors for the fine distinctions that sometimes have to be made between cars of near-identical quality; ie: a 89 point car vs a 88 point car.

The terms are not intended to suggest one is necessarily better than the other. You're interpreting the comparison far too literally.

It's Not a fine distinction. I assume that you eat pepper, it's in a large percentage of foodstuffs, and perhaps you use  pepper yourself at the table.

I'm pretty certain that you DO NOT eat flysh!t.

The same goes for wheat and chaff, you can eat the former (if you are not gluten intolerant - actually you can still eat it but may have to suffer consequences), but chaff it not digestible for us humans.

That's NOT anywhere on the same plane as the difference between an 88 vs an 89 point car or even between an 89 vs a 90 point car.

The separation of the cream from the milk would be a far better analogy.

George, Scot,

I'm not disagreeing with either of you. I don't think I'll ever own a low mileage original that is 50-60 years old. I couldn't afford what I like in those years, which is either a convertible or a Fleetwood 60 / Brougham / 75 (the last won't fit in my garage). If I ever did get my hands on one, I'd probably mess it up myself within 2 weeks.

I do have an original 23 year old car which looks like it just left the showroom, and it's a high mileage car, but you can't  compare the effort of keeping an original 50s 60s car with a 90s car. Again they are on completely separate planes.

[Cape Cod Fleetwood]

So enjoy the new changes but you have handicapped the original cars with flaws. Flaws not going to be "dolled up" since dolling them up means painting or redoing interiors. Something that I will not do to a very nice original car. If you have noticed the real area of interest in the top end collector are the unrestored untouched cars. Not the modified ones. I consider modified disc brake, electronic ignition, etc.... Sorry that is modified but you can modify a car if you want but many top end collectors will never consider these cars.

Respectfully:
"Continuation of standard that "condition, appearance, equipment, authenticity, operability, cleanliness" should be as originally delivered."

Me thinks if a 70 was delivered with 'flaws' it would have been returned to the dealer quickly.

If anything, if you want to psycho analyze Touring, the cars are held to higher visual standard than Primary, they HAVE to look nicer. "as originally delivered" et al. Put your nice original cars in Primary where they belong. The majority of the rest of us are 'saving' older cars, giving them a new life. And that will include paint and interiors. So we go to the Touring group. Changes in equipment for SAFETY are a no brainer, by definition the Touring group are cars that are driven. If the God's had blessed HEI, I'd have no problem with that either. Though I prefer points for the reason Scot mentioned. Yes The Ark is a prepper!

One of the first pieces of wisdom Michael Amster gave me was this - DRIVE IT LIKE YOU STOLE IT. I drove The Ark like I was in my own personal funeral when I first got it. Michael kept emphasizing BEAT ON IT, IT WILL BE HAPPIER.

He's right. As always. My highway cruising speed is preferably 90 but the front end gets a little floaty, so 80 is fine. I'm also a Scotti Graduate, so...  Other drivers don't bother me, I've been trained to evade them. And in capable hands The Ark is as agile, as I've proven, as anything else. Its not the car, its the driver. This 70 is FAR safer than my daily driver. If a pick up truck hits me head on with the Acadia, my remains will be vacuumed out. Hit me head on with The Ark, without seat belts, and I walk away. Maybe with a limp but I walk away. When you're driving a car hard, when you're beating on it like they love it (50 shades of Turquoise?) radials are a must. Why wouldn't you use radials given the choice. They're safer, they're quieter, the car is more controllable, ITS WHY THEY INVENTED RADIALS. LOL! Keep the bias tires for the appropriate groups. The Primary/Senior/Wreath/Crown cars aren't being 'driven', they're mostly trailer queen show ponies. And that's GREAT! Those cars are a blast to see, their history and authenticity is to be appreciated. I *LOVE* the old, elderly cars, I think they're cool! But I can't imagine owning a car I can't drive like a demon... The Ark has already eaten more than one 'tuner' at the lights of 28 and Willow Street. 

After 5 hours of interior cleaning preparing for the show season today (I'm not even close to being 'done') I rewarded myself and The Ark with a couple of runs around the block. Chirping the tires from a stop, chirping into reverse, hearing a bit of tire squeal with those 45 degree turns at speed, feeling the front end lift a bit from a stop, DRIVE IT LIKE YOU STOLE IT! ... and The Ark smiles...

There's no market for these cars now, top end collector or other wise. Own your car for yourself, enjoy it as you wish. Yeah you see them selling at Barret for 75-100 every now and then. That resto was over 200K, great return on investment.

Keep Primary to Wreath cars biblical, its proper. The Touring group are DRIVERS, they need to be safe and reliable and they're held to higher visual standard. A modification is chopping, bagging, blown engines... not radials or disc brakes.

MHO
\m/
Laurie

[76eldo]

The Touring Class was conceived so that cars that would not ever get even a third in Primary could have a place to compete and can win awards. The rules outlined at the beginning of this thread have no bearing on whether the car is original or not with respect to the paint, chrome or interior.

The griping here, which surprises me, is the same old original VS restored argument that’s been going on for probably 40 years.

If you own an all original car and don’t want to charge anything on it you need to accept the fact that it will not score as high as a fully restored trailer queen. That’s the facts and it doesn’t matter if your car is original, flaws create deductions. I am fully aware, I have two original low mileage cars and would not want to change a thing on them.  That’s why they have the Past Presidents Preservation award to honor such cards and the panel that gives out these awards is very knowledgeable.

They may someday create an all original class but it would be very hard to validate exactly how original the cars are.

For now these are the rules and classes that we have. There’s nothing personal about it, there’s a scoresheet that you are competing against, not other cars.

The car and the ride is my award. If, when I bring one of these original gems to a GN and get any award, that’s a bonus. 

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

One of the first pieces of wisdom Michael Amster gave me was this - DRIVE IT LIKE YOU STOLE IT. I drove The Ark like I was in my own personal funeral when I first got it. Michael kept emphasizing BEAT ON IT, IT WILL BE HAPPIER.

Another [former] forum member who once lived by the same credo got a harsh reality check in the reasons why old iron should never be treated in such a manner. While the best preventative efforts can never completely eliminate the potential for major mechanical failure, there's no question that careful use will significantly improve the odds.

With engine rebuilds approaching the $10K mark today, I sure wouldn't push my luck.

[Dan LeBlanc]

Yup.  Burned a hole in 2 pistons and killed the transmission.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

A friend blew the rings in a low mileage 1966 SdV one fine day when he decided to play "giddyap" with the car. Another blew head gaskets in a '55 Star Chief in a "slightly illegal" street race.

Not telling anyone what to do or how to drive but pounding an old car is just asking for trouble.

[gkhashem]

Me thinks if a 70 was delivered with 'flaws' it would have been returned to the dealer quickly.

If anything, if you want to psycho analyze Touring, the cars are held to higher visual standard than Primary, they HAVE to look nicer. "as originally delivered" et al. Put your nice original cars in Primary where they belong. The majority of the rest of us are 'saving' older cars, giving them a new life. And that will include paint and interiors. So we go to the Touring group. Changes in equipment for SAFETY are a no brainer, by definition the Touring group are cars that are driven. If the God's had blessed HEI, I'd have no problem with that either. Though I prefer points for the reason Scot mentioned. Yes The Ark is a prepper!

One of the first pieces of wisdom Michael Amster gave me was this - DRIVE IT LIKE YOU STOLE IT. I drove The Ark like I was in my own personal funeral when I first got it. Michael kept emphasizing BEAT ON IT, IT WILL BE HAPPIER.

He's right. As always. My highway cruising speed is preferably 90 but the front end gets a little floaty, so 80 is fine. I'm also a Scotti Graduate, so...  Other drivers don't bother me, I've been trained to evade them. And in capable hands The Ark is as agile, as I've proven, as anything else. Its not the car, its the driver. This 70 is FAR safer than my daily driver. If a pick up truck hits me head on with the Acadia, my remains will be vacuumed out. Hit me head on with The Ark, without seat belts, and I walk away. Maybe with a limp but I walk away. When you're driving a car hard, when you're beating on it like they love it (50 shades of Turquoise?) radials are a must. Why wouldn't you use radials given the choice. They're safer, they're quieter, the car is more controllable, ITS WHY THEY INVENTED RADIALS. LOL! Keep the bias tires for the appropriate groups. The Primary/Senior/Wreath/Crown cars aren't being 'driven', they're mostly trailer queen show ponies. And that's GREAT! Those cars are a blast to see, their history and authenticity is to be appreciated. I *LOVE* the old, elderly cars, I think they're cool! But I can't imagine owning a car I can't drive like a demon... The Ark has already eaten more than one 'tuner' at the lights of 28 and Willow Street. 

After 5 hours of interior cleaning preparing for the show season today (I'm not even close to being 'done') I rewarded myself and The Ark with a couple of runs around the block. Chirping the tires from a stop, chirping into reverse, hearing a bit of tire squeal with those 45 degree turns at speed, feeling the front end lift a bit from a stop, DRIVE IT LIKE YOU STOLE IT! ... and The Ark smiles...

There's no market for these cars now, top end collector or other wise. Own your car for yourself, enjoy it as you wish. Yeah you see them selling at Barret for 75-100 every now and then. That resto was over 200K, great return on investment.

Keep Primary to Wreath cars biblical, its proper. The Touring group are DRIVERS, they need to be safe and reliable and they're held to higher visual standard. A modification is chopping, bagging, blown engines... not radials or disc brakes.

MHO
\m/
Laurie

If you think getting hit head on in a 1970 Fleetwood is going to be a walk away experience, maybe you already have been hit on the head.   

Also if you need to squeal the tires, have fun, I got over that at age 18-20 or so. A Cadillac is not a race car, it's a luxury car and I drive my car as such. But you can beat the car up all you want. I cruise around in it in style. If I wanted to burn rubber I would get a muscle car I guess.

Just do not cry if something blows up on you. I remember you commenting on being on a limited budget while doing your other repairs.

Also I commend you for restoring a car that needs it. You are saving the car. That is different than making over a very nice original car. While you can because you own it, not probably the best decision unless one has no choice.

But then again you missed the subtle point. I find most of the anguish over judging comes from people who do not study the rules. You study the rules to decide if you want to play or not.  Then you decide if you want to put in the work and money to play.

So now that I have read the rules, I may not play the game. So you win and others lose. People usually do not care about others who lose. They only care if they win. Yes, I lost so I am crying, but I am a strange bird. I try to think out the consequences as best I can when things are changed. Now am I going to lose sleep if someone else loses? Maybe, maybe not, but at least I have given it some thought and not casually tossed the other view point aside. It's part of trying to be fair.

But the main point and I have not emphasized it as much I should have is the raising of the 1st prize level to 90 points is what I think makes it a handicap. I may have not have highlighted it as much as I should have.

[Caddy Wizard]

I am bringing my 55 FW to the GN this year and will have it judged in the Touring Class.  It carries its original drivetrain, half of its original paint, most of its original interior (all but the carpet).  I have had 19 old Cadillacs between 1949 and 1962.  Some were high-end cars, all were a joy to me.  Well, there was a 56 Eldo that I didn't like.  But I digress. LOL!

My cars have never done well in the CLC GN judging.  I have never tried to hide any flaws or mods in my cars.  I have finished behind cars that wouldn't go over 30 miles per hour or had a much newer engine disguised as a an original engine (but pretty paint jobs).  I don't care.  My cars have been short-changed several times.  I don't care.  I just don't care.

I love working on old Cadillacs.  I love driving old Cadillacs (over the past 30 years, I have driven an old Cad as my everyday car about 12 years).  I love making an original Cadillac system work like new and look like new.  I love some tasteful modification that (IMO) makes the car work better and safer (like electronic ignition, dual circuit masters, seat belts, alternators that look like generators, etc.). I am not even that much into car club meetings and car shows -- I prefer the work and the driving experience.

The bottom line is that I do what I do out of a passion for old Cadillacs.  I spend countless hours, year after year, tinkering with old Cadillacs.  I do it because I love it.  If I never win a trophy, so be it.  Awards are immaterial to me.  I'll take the joy of the work, the joy of the journey, the joy of driving them.  To me, that is all that matters. 

[Lexi]

Makes total sense to me Art. I prefer looking at unmolested cars myself. They are more like a time capsule. Their wear and tear actually add to the experience. If I make this year's GN my eyes will be all over your Fleetwood. Clay/Lexi