1939 Cadillac Convertible Sedan #23 of 36 Built

[Mike Baillargeon #15848]

Mike,  Looks like you are back in business. A couple of "while ur at its"  on the clutch. Regarding the pilot bearing there is a snap ring that fits in a slight groove that  holds it in place. Also check the fit of the bearing as to the input shaft. Sometimes these are too tight and won't allow the transmission to slip into place much less separate if necessary. It is a good idea to check the clutch disc mating surface of the flywheel (also on pressure plate) for smoothness and run out. A little roughness or a couple of .000 can cause  chatter  Harry

Harry I did ask Feltz about that snap ring that I don't see in my new motor and he said it's a standard ring and could be found at any hardware store....I do see the groove you mentioned in the flywheel hole to hold the pilot bearing in there....

I also see in the shop manual that it says to pre-fit the clutch onto the splines of the tranny to make assembly easier....I'll also make sure that the TO slides easily on the shaft when the fork is moving also....can I use regular bearing grease there or does that attract too much dirt??

The Terrill guy was good he stopped and looked to see if I needed anything else to do the job....

Mike

[Mike Baillargeon #15848]

There are more pictures and descriptions on the bottom page 7 before this posting....please check those out and weigh in with thoughts....

Mike

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Looking at the picture of the flywheel on the engine with the bellhousing in place it is hard to see if the Pilot Bearing is actually in place.

With the rustiness of the input shaft on the gearbox picture, it looks like the gearbox hasn't been on the engine for a long time, and you will need to carefully inspect both the crankshaft end and the input shaft and measure to see if there is one there.

By the way, the grease removal method for the Pilot Bearing has been around for years, but make sure that the "dowel" fits perfectly, as if it is a sloppy fit, the grease will follow the path of least resistance, and you WILL get messy.  If you are making the "dowel", make sure that the OD is the same for at least an inch further out, so that the Pilot Bearing has a place to slide on as it comes out.

Bruce.

[Mike Baillargeon #15848]

I heard you Bruce, so today I took some PB and a wire brush to that input shaft to see how the clutch would ride on that shaft....

Sticky at first, nice and smooth after...still gotta lube it up before assembly...

With regard to the balancing of the clutch...the shop manual says while the car is on the lift run it and check for vibration....If lots of vibration, you should install 5/16" washers onto the bolts of the clutch and then retest and add or move as necessary....Sounds kinda caveman-ish but it might work....what do you think?

Mike 

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Mike,

The washer method of balancing is a last resort to use when replacing a Pressure Plate.

Most Pressure Plates are balanced before they leave the manufacturer, and I have never come across one with a problem.

If I had one that was a problem, I would be removing the Clutch and Pressure Plate and firing up the engine, to see if there was an inherent out of balance within the engine itself.

Then install the Pressure Plate, and run, then the Clutch Plate with the Pressure Plate, centred by the transmission, then remove the transmission, and finally the transmission attacked.

If any imbalance showed itself during these steps, then one would know which part/parts were faulty.

99.9% of the time, it would be impossible to know if something was out of balance, to the point of being dangerous, and that last .1% would be rattling everything to pieces.

Whenever I rebuild an engine, using aftermarket parts, I have the whole reciprocating mass balanced, along with the flywheel, and Pressure Plates if a Manual.   I even had a spare Pressure Plate included on one job.

Now, how good can a Balance Job be one would ask, and is it worth it?   With my Dragster, I originally ran a bog-stock street engine out of a '68 Galaxie that I rebuilt for the previous owner, and it ran well and reved up nicely.   Following the Balance job, the thing reved so much quicker, and instantly, and ran the 1/4 mile in 101 seconds quicker.   We couldn't believe that a simple balance would make such a difference.   That engine was REALLY smooth afterwards.   But, destroyed itself when a Pressure Plate decided to get totally out of balance.   Once the pieces were gathered up, we found a cracked Clutch Finger lug caused the failure.

Bruce.

[DaveZ]

To add one more point. The clutch plate face can only be off something like .012?, It's in the manual; or you might get chatter. I had a plate done once and didn't check it figuring the shop knew to do it. Well lesson learned, it chattered up a storm and had to take it apart again:-(

[harry s]

To echo what Dave said, I had my '37 flywheel resurfaced along with the engine rebuild and balance. Wouldn't you know the clutch chattered. As it turned out the flywheel had a .007" run out. The main reason for getting into this was to fix transmission leaks.
As to the 'cave man" method of balancing the clutch (as described in the service manual) it works! A few years ago a friend had a slight vibration in his '41 just rebuilt engine, flywheel & clutch. We followed the procedure with one washer re positioned three times which was an improvement then added a second washer and the vibration was gone. To Bruce's point I agree with the proper way to do it when dealing with a high rpm short stroke engine. Engine rebuilding has come a long way since back then.

[Mike Baillargeon #15848]

Thanks guys there's alot to keep in mind...

I got the pilot and the throw-out bearings in today...see pictures

So I pulled the old tranny off the old motor and took the clutch apart to see how it's all going to go back together and how it looks when installed correctly.....more pictures

Check out the input shaft of the old tranny....there is an etched letter & number that the new tranny doesn't have....could the old tranny have been rebuilt at some time?

The tranny pulled out without any problems....pulled the TO bearing off the fork it dropped out the bottom....there is that collar that Terrill was talking about....it has to be pressed out and then pressed back in the new TO.....I have a 70 ton press in the shop but, I don't want to crush anything so I'll let the guys at the local NAPA machine shop do that....

Next I went and tried to remove the clutch and pressure plate....I started by taking out the clutch fork. I removed the 6 bolts out of the pressure plate but the assembly wouldn't drop out of the bell-housing....I had to back out the bell-housing about a half and inch and she dropped out.....

Check out the old clutch, it has a flange disk just a little smaller than the pressure plate interior opening.....It seems like a self aligning fit so you don't need that clutch alignment tool...seems like a good idea, my new one doesn't have this disk and this old clutch is really worn....

I can see the old pilot bearing and that snap ring....I think I can get the old snap ring out but I'm glad I don't have to dig out that old pilot bearing......It feels like I'm going to have to bang in the new pilot into the new flywheel deep enough to get that groove where the snap ring goes....I've got a socket that I can bang, this socket only will touch the outside ring of the bearing and I think I can get it in there straight....

Mike

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Mike,

Don't tempt fate and get an aligning tool.

Failing that, install the clutch and pressure plate loosely, then install the transmission, then tighten up the pressure plate bolts.   This way you will be using an alignment tool, albeit a large one.

Bruce.

[Mike Baillargeon #15848]

My guy at NAPA pressed the collar off and then on the new TO....He wanted to charge me 2 bucks....he did it while I waited...I gave him $10.....Isn't it great to see a grease fitting right where you need one like on the collar of the TO.....do they still put grease fittings on the cars of today?

I pulled out the old pilot bearing by just hooking it with this tool....came right out......after putting in the new pilot bearing, it would be a bear to remove it...it is in there snug!....I'd have to figure out that snap wrench to do it....

I installed the new pilot bearing....I had to tap it in with a socket attached to an extension....then I put in that spring clip....looks good but you can see it ain't going to be easy to thread the needle with that trannys input shaft thru the clutch into that pilot bearing...we'll see maybe I'll get lucky...

Mike

[Mike Baillargeon #15848]

Mike,

Don't tempt fate and get an aligning tool.

Failing that, install the clutch and pressure plate loosely, then install the transmission, then tighten up the pressure plate bolts.   This way you will be using an alignment tool, albeit a large one.

Bruce.

Bruce I did pick-up that alignment tool....but I might try it your way by using the tranny with a loose fitting clutch and pressure plate.....

I was thinking of using the forklift with a strap around the tranny to take most of the weight, then I could guide the trans thru that gauntlet of splines and into the pilot bearing....But I might really be asking for an unbalanced clutch....then I'll see if that washer balancing trick mentioned in the shop manual works....

Mike

[Mike Baillargeon #15848]

Yes, today I used the alignment tool and set everything up nice and straight......I had to use the old fork because it was a hair bigger than the newer one and it fit the collar of the throw-out bearing....

Slid the tranny in and I would get stuck right at the entrance of the pilot bearing.....pull it out and put it back in what seemed like a couple of dozen times.....got it to the entrance of the pilot bearing and then I finger tighten the 4 bolts that hold the tranny to the bell-housing.....slowly tighten each bolt and it walked right in......then Harry reminded me that I needed a gasket between trans and bell-housing....Pulled it out again and then I used the Black Gasket Maker by Permatex....then walked it right back into place with the bolts...

Boy that tranny got heavier and heavier as the day went on....but I turned the crank by hand with the trans in gear and it all spun.....I can't imagine doing this job on my back in the driveway....or maybe I'm just getting old.....

I'll worry about the clutch balance when I go to start the motor at a later date.....

On and off I've been trying to pull the dash out of the car.....It's like it's welded in there.....I spend a full day yesterday under the dash pulling screws out....this looks like a long hard slog to get that thing out......the wiring harness is shot....all crumbly with lots of bare wire showing....I'm thinking a new wiring harness will be easier to use with the dash out....plus I can test gauges and clean everything up....

Mike

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Congratulations.

Sounds like the alignment tool wasn't perfect.   When you get a chance, apply pressure to the clutch fork, and that will release the clutch plate, allowing it to totally self-centre, and take pressure off the side-thrust which it now has.

When the factory says use a gasket in a lot of places, they mean that the gasket is required for the thickness of the gasket itself, to space the pieces a specified distance apart.

Is yours there to simply contain a possible oil leak?   If that is the case, then it shouldn't matter that you are using a gasket cement on its' own.

Bruce.

[Mike Baillargeon #15848]

I tried to scrape off the old gasket....it was paper thin....I'm guessing that it's there just for leaks....

The gasket material goops they make now are really good....in a pinch when I didn't have an oil pan gasket I used just the Grey Gasket Maker and it work fine with no leaks.....

This tranny doesn't have alot of pressure and I would think we're just trying to stop the splashing oil from coming out....

Mike

[DaveZ]

RE: putting the tranny in. Too late now, but what helps is two long bolts with the heads cut off screwed into the top two trans mount holes. They are good guides when putting the trans in the bell housing. When in take 'em out and put the bolts in. Rhode Island wiring has excellent wiring harnesses. I did two and perfect fit with proper sizing, color codes etc.
You don't have to take the whole dash out. I just took out the light switch as it was easier to hook the wires, then feed the harness in. Taking the seat out lying on my back with a light it was fairly simple and only took a couple hours.

[James Landi]

Labors of love, and as the Great Bard stated, "Not all of Love's Labors are Lost."  We're with you, and appreciate your narratives and pictures,  Happy Day, James

[Mike Baillargeon #15848]

I don't have alot to report....but now that the rebuilt motor & trans are ready to go I decided to crate up the old motor & trans.....I have some of those collapse-able pallet boxes....I put everything that has to to with the old motor, trans in the crate, that way if someday I sell the car, the new owner can take the matching numbers motor with the car.....plus it gets lots of miscellaneous parts out of the way...

Next is working on getting the chrome & gauges out of the dash....

Boy it's not easy to get in and out from under the dash.....I'm taking the chrome and gauges out of the dash to clean-up and to repaint the backgrounds under the glass.....

Of course I broke one of the rounded glass covers.....it's the one that covers the clock....This piece of glass is curved and is about 14" long and 1 1/2" wide...if anybody has an extra one I will buy it from you....

While the gauges are out I wanted to cover the dash with that wood grain decal also....I know someone who has some extra decals...

Again thanks all for the help....

Mike

[Mike Baillargeon #15848]

This cover?.....Was in the trunk with other parts, in the sedan parts car...

Does anybody recognize it?     I don't see this on the convertible....

Mike

[Jeff Hansen]

WAG:  Something to do with the battery box?

Jeff

[Mike Baillargeon #15848]

WAG:  Something to do with the battery box?

Jeff

Thanks Jeff,     I was holding it up and moving it around the trunk to see if any holes lined up.....no luck...

It looks like it's for protecting something....I don't know....it's probably out of a 62 Ford Falcon......

I'll try the battery, but it's behind the passenger front tire and there not alot of room there.....

Mike