1950s Updating 56 coupe deville

[Cadman-iac]

I'm currently working on restoring my 56 Cadillac Coupe Deville with a few upgrades that will give it more go power and stopping power, I hope.
I'm installing a 69 472 with the TH400,  and I want to put disc brakes on it.  But I want to use the original wheels and hubcaps because I just love the look of the deep dish caps.
I have already converted the power booster to a hydro-boost unit mounted where the original Treadle-Vac was, but  the actual disc conversion is gonna be a bit more difficult.
I want to eliminate the ball bearing hubs and use roller bearings instead. So I guess my question for the group is, does anyone know what bearings will directly replace the original ones?
I can make my own caliper brackets as well,  but I need to know what  rotor/caliper combo will fit inside the original wheel. I have a 72 Eldo parts car, and the rotors are the right diameter but the offset is not deep enough.
Does anyone know what might work in this situation?
I am also upgrading the rear axle with one from a 72 Deville.

Any ideas ?

[signart]

You could try your hubcaps on some GM 5 lug truck rallys if you want to stay 5 on 5. I know they will fit on the 8" rallys but I don't have any 7" rallys on hand to try. If you are changing to rotors your choice of steel wheels are wide open.
I do have some 7x15 car rallys I will try next time I'm at the shop. Car rallys are 5 on 4-3/4"

[Roger Zimmermann]

I'm not sure, but I believe that the '56 drum have the same diameter than the '72. As I' not home, I cannot verify.
You will certainly not find roller bearings which can be used on the '56 hubs without modification.

[cadillac ken]

Be aware that the early hub caps will not usually fit onto later wheels.  The clips on the 56 caps are at the outermost perimeter and the later Chevy 5 on 5 rims do not have the ability to accommodate those clips.  I'm running 55 caps on a 60's Caddy wheel.  I wish I could remember what year I took the rims off of years ago in a junkyard but suffice to say, you just need to try them for fit.

[Cadman-iac]

You could try your hubcaps on some GM 5 lug truck rallys if you want to stay 5 on 5. I know they will fit on the 8" rallys but I don't have any 7" rallys on hand to try. If you are changing to rotors your choice of steel wheels are wide open.
I do have some 7x15 car rallys I will try next time I'm at the shop. Car rallys are 5 on 4-3/4"

[35-709]

The 472/500 swap is not usually an easy one, would be interested to hear what you have to do, or did, and how to get it done.

[Cadman-iac]

Art,
I think I might have screwed up and accidentally reported your post instead of quoting it. I'm not sure how to do a quote. Anyway, to answer your post, I've thought about using the truck wheels, but as some else has pointed out,  the caps won't fit.  I have at least 100 or more wheels from trucks and Cadillacs from 55 to 90, and only the caddy wheels with the reverse dish centers will accept the 56 caps.
I went with the 56 set of wheels even though they have rivets only because I have a complete set of 5 with the same production dates. All of the later ones I have don't match,  not that it really matters that much.
I have a 77 sedan deville and the wheels have the wider lip for the hubcaps but the center isn't deep enough for the caps. They will fit the 63  wheels but other than welded centers, there's no difference from the 56 ones. Same offset and bolt pattern.
  As for the  56 drums  versus the 72, the shoe size is identical.  I discovered  while trying to match front to rear  drum brakes that there were a few small things that were different.  The main thing was the hole where the E-brake lever attaches, and the holes  for the shoe to shoe spring, and lastly,  the flat surface the adjuster sits on. With multiple years of brake parts to choose from,  I was able to make a system that was self adjusting with the large shoes.   I just don't like having to use the ball bearings on the front,  and the original drums. If I could get roller bearings and finned drums on the front, I would be  ok with it.  Metallic shoes would work well enough I think. But my wish is disc brakes.

Roger,
I could use the 63 hubs, they use roller bearings,  they just don't fit the 56 spindle without an adapter or sleeve of some sort. The problem with the 56 spindle and roller bearings is that the surface the seal rides on is actually the inner bearing race instead of the spindle itself.
I know that a disc conversion on a straight axle Chevy Truck uses a spacer for just that reason.  Unfortunately the spindle diameter is smaller on the truck. I even thought about using the truck spindles but I'm afraid they wouldn't be strong enough.
  I really want to keep as much of the original ride quality as possible, meaning the suspension, but in today's traffic, disc brakes are almost a necessity.

[Dan LeBlanc]

Art,
I think I might have screwed up and accidentally reported your post instead of quoting it.

Happens all the time.  No worries, you didn't report it - we didn't receive a report.

[signart]

I was commenting out of hope, but as I just discovered after trying the '56 wheel cover in my stash of wheels, many were deep enough but as noted above, the retainers would not catch on anything. Hope you come up with something, the '56 caps are gorgeous.  Good luck.

[Cadman-iac]

The 472/500 swap is not usually an easy one, would be interested to hear what you have to do, or did, and how to get it done.

Think I figured out the quote feature finally.
The 472/500 swap does take a bit of effort.  I began mine before I found out about a site that has swapping tips for these engines into a variety of different cars and trucks. The site is cad500.com and the tech section is what you want.
I'm not finished yet, and unfortunately I don't have any pictures yet as I just got  this new phone, but I'd be glad to answer any questions you have.
I was able to get it into the car with only a small modification to the driver side air box. I had to enlarge the dimple or notch if you will,  for the left valve cover.
I made my own motor mounts and they attach at the same point the original ones did.
I had to notch the frame to clear the oil pump and filter, and modified an oil pan for a rear sump. I also modified the core support to fit a truck radiator and I'm still working on this.

I've also swapped in a 72 deville steering box.  Seems that the 56 is the first year that they used this bolt pattern for the gear box.  One problem with this is that the steering linkage doesn't clear the end of the box, but by extending both the pitman arm and the idler arm by about half an inch,  it just clears and still keeps the steering geometry intact. That was something I was really concerned with.  I've seen  too many "adapter" kits for various vehicles that do not consider this  at all, and you end up with something with 2 turns left and 3 to the right,  or worse.  One in particular that comes to mind is one sold for the 60 to 66 Chevy Trucks. I won't mention their name here, but I have 4 trucks and have modified all of them myself with a frame graft just to keep the geometry intact, and it works quite well too.

[fishnjim]

I went thru this on the '58 and consensus then was had to retain my drum brakes to use the stock hubcaps.   No one had a kit for stock rims. (wasn't concerned for '56.)
With dual master/booster system and proportioning, they stop very adequately, so no rush to discs required.  You just don't have the auto adjusters that early - periodic readjustments.   But your rears may from the other car.
Without ABS, discs won't perform that much better.  If not the right caliper/master sizing, they'll be worse.   Once you lock up the wheel, brake type is immaterial to stopping.   
     
The '56 wheel is a one of, reported when someone was trying to obtain a new one, I don't recall dimensions/offset, etc. but typical 15" big GM.   I think it's a rivetted two piece, so likely has similar clearance issues.   The rim stock changes over time and the lip is where the hubcap fits or doesn't.  I was able to get later wheels, that weren't the same vintage, but fit by matching the stamped letters on the rim on the tire side.   That won't be possible here.   A whole new rim would be chosen, if one fits those caps.   I'm not running stock, I have wire caps.  Stocks fit, but not as well.
They're are several places, classicdiscbrakes, vintagebrake, etc. sold thru various outlets, that make kits for '50s Caddie disc conversions and they can give you better info about what fits and don't, but majority I've come across over the years, have to switch to bigger dia. rims to clear calipers, or change spindles, offsets, etc.   I think Fatman was making Cad spindles, reg and drop, for these apps, but been a few years now.  That will change the way the tire appears in the wheel opening.   Needs current researching.
I would not recommend DIY engineering on brake system conversions, as brakes are covered by NTHSA.  Puts one in a sticky liability, if something goes wrong and causes accident leading to lawsuit.   Although capable, I paid someone to put the system in, because I didn't want that liability.   I know it's commonly done, but it's a chance I don't take.   Plus if you sell, what's the next guy going to do, if cobbled together parts, etc.

One should be able to match a roller bearing for the ball.   I haven't tried it, I got new ball bearings easily.   They work, why change?   Need to take to a bearings supplier and let them figure it out.   It won't make much difference so long as fitment is proper.   I suspect someday, they'll switch them all over as ball become scarcer.   Otherwise, you change the spindle.   And you need the proper dimensions to make that work.   There's too many variables; tire alignment, etc. for one to do this without a lot of research/engineering.   Not your typical DIY job, short of hot rodding.
My recommend: buy a suspension/brake kit and change everything over; spindles, rims, etc.  '56 Fi Slamma Jamma.   More your "modified Cad" forum discussion too.  I'd check over there for the latest.

[Cadman-iac]

Jim, 

Where is this modified forum at?  And thanks for the advice/info.

[walt chomosh #23510]

I built up a set of disc brakes years ago on my 1955 CDV. (no kits available at the time) Originally, I ran a set of Chevy 5x5 truck wheels (the 55 hubcaps fit....tight),then switched to a set of spoke wheels that I had to machine spacer of just over 1/4 inch.(aluminum) If I was willing to grind on my calipers I may have gotten by without the spacer. I used a Wilwood dual MC(stock 1inch) remote fill,NAPA Chevy truck rotors,and NAPA Eldorado calipers.....contact scarecrow in the northwest...walt...tulsa,ok

[J. Gomez]

Jim, 

Where is this modified forum at?  And thanks for the advice/info.

http://www.modifiedcadillac.org/

Click on the "Forum" link to registered and access the forum.

Good luck..!

[Cadman-iac]

http://www.modifiedcadillac.org/

Click on the "Forum" link to registered and access the forum.

Good luck..!

Well,  it must take a while to get accepted in that group.  No answer yet and it's been several hours now.

I built up a set of disc brakes years ago on my 1955 CDV. (no kits available at the time) Originally, I ran a set of Chevy 5x5 truck wheels (the 55 hubcaps fit....tight),then switched to a set of spoke wheels that I had to machine spacer of just over 1/4 inch.(aluminum) If I was willing to grind on my calipers I may have gotten by without the spacer. I used a Wilwood dual MC(stock 1inch) remote fill,NAPA Chevy truck rotors,and NAPA Eldorado calipers.....contact scarecrow in the northwest...walt...tulsa,ok

Walt,
How'd you get the truck rotors to fit the Cadillac  spindles? What bearings did you use?

It would be nice to be able to use truck rotors since they are 12 inches in diameter, but they don't fit in the stock 15" drum brake wheels.
The 72 Eldo rotors are only  11" in diameter and could work "IF" I had hubs that would offset them far enough to the inside.
I did a conversion on a 64 Chevelle some 20 years ago and I used only the hubs from a 81 El Camino, cutting off the rotors. That gave me the ability to use a set of larger rotors from a 99 Camaro/Firebird that just slipped over the studs and I also used the 4 piston calipers. I only had to make my own brackets.

I just don't know what hub/rotor to use for the Cadillac,  if there even is one.
The master cylinder and proportioning valve can all be sorted out later. My hang up right now is the rotor and caliper setup.
Caddy Daddy does offer a kit to do this but it's not cheap, and unfortunately I'm not rich. They claim that their kit works with stock wheels and spindles.

OPGI used to have a kit  back in their 09 catalog, but not now. Funny thing is though,  they list one for the 49 to 55 Cadillacs. What really tics me off about that is that the only difference between 56 and the earlier years is, 1, where the master cylinder is,  and 2, the lower  shock mounting,  neither of which would make a difference in the  rotors or calipers.

There must be a way to do this with stock parts or modified stock parts. I just hate to be dependent on some  after market company for custom made parts. What happens down the road when you need another part that they made and you find out it's not available anymore?

I checked with Classic Disc Brakes and they advertise that their parts are "Assembled in the USA". So where exactly are they "MADE" if I may ask ? Anyone know?
I believe in buying American, especially for a classic American Cadillac.

[J. Gomez]

Well,  it must take a while to get accepted in that group.  No answer yet and it's been several hours now.

There is no one alive answering it is all automated.   

You will get a confirmation email on the same address your used to registered for you to confirmed, you may need to check your spam folder as your ISP may had blocked the message.

[Cadman-iac]

I went thru this on the '58 and consensus then was had to retain my drum brakes to use the stock hubcaps.   No one had a kit for stock rims. (wasn't concerned for '56.)
With dual master/booster system and proportioning, they stop very adequately, so no rush to discs required.  You just don't have the auto adjusters that early - periodic readjustments.   But your rears may from the other car.

Jim, yes,  the rear drums are from the 72 Deville. I'm using the whole axle assembly. I have 3 of them so I've got plenty of spare parts, including the drums.
  I had thought about using the 72 rear drums for the front as well, but I would have to trim the original 56 backing plate and  now I don't recall if the 72 drum would clear the suspension parts without trimming the drum as well.
I did get self adjusters on the drum brakes  for the front when I was trying to set it up with drums, using the 72 system for it. I can't remember all the details of which parts I used to get it to work, but I do know I used peices from 63 to 72. Somewhere I had written it all down because my memory isn't as good as it used to be.

[Cadman-iac]

Well I'm trimming down one of the original drum backing plates to get  a 72 finned drum on the front. If it fits without hitting anything else,  I'm going with drums in the  front. 
I'm not paying what they want for someone's modified disc brakes and be stuck getting replacement parts at ridiculous prices.
It would have been nice to have discs, but after careful consideration of what I want to do with this car, I figure that the drums and semi metallic shoes will do just fine.

My thanks to all who gave me advice,  it was much appreciated.

[cadillacmike68]

Rich,

Please consider changing your login. The one you have is an invitation to spam.

[Cadman-iac]

I went thru this on the '58 and consensus then was had to retain my drum brakes to use the stock hubcaps.   No one had a kit for stock rims. (wasn't concerned for '56.)
With dual master/booster system and proportioning, they stop very adequately, so no rush to discs required.  You just don't have the auto adjusters that early - periodic readjustments.   But your rears may from the other car.
Without ABS, discs won't perform that much better.  If not the right caliper/master sizing, they'll be worse.   Once you lock up the wheel, brake type is immaterial to stopping.   
     
The '56 wheel is a one of, reported when someone was trying to obtain a new one, I don't recall dimensions/offset, etc. but typical 15" big GM.   I think it's a rivetted two piece, so likely has similar clearance issues.   The rim stock changes over time and the lip is where the hubcap fits or doesn't.  I was able to get later wheels, that weren't the same vintage, but fit by matching the stamped letters on the rim on the tire side.   That won't be possible here.   A whole new rim would be chosen, if one fits those caps.   I'm not running stock, I have wire caps.  Stocks fit, but not as well.
They're are several places, classicdiscbrakes, vintagebrake, etc. sold thru various outlets, that make kits for '50s Caddie disc conversions.

I asked the people at classic disc brakes about where their parts are made,  and they admit that the rotors are imported.  Sorry, not for me!
I checked out the vintage brakes  place and they only do motorcycle and bicycle brakes,  but thanks for the suggestions. I didn't know these places were out there.