'70 eldorado survivor struggle to sort out the wiper..

[billmorrow]

hello..
the wipers don't come on..
the switch looks to be ok..
there IS 12 volts at the two yellow wires on the three wire plug on the wiper motor..
the grounds look to be ok..
there is some sort of "gizmo" under the black plastic cover on the wiper motor.. no idea what it is supposed to do..
i see wiper motors for a bunch of GM cars of the '68 thru seventy something for sale, online of $50 to $75.. all without that "gizmo" under that black plastic cover on the wiper motor..
i also see a wiper motor from a '70 or '70 cadillac for $250+ WITH the black plastic thing..
i think i might try just feeding 12 volts and ground to the wiper motor and see what happens.. it DID, while i was messing with it, move the wipers to the park position so i THINK the motor is OK..
SO, does anyone have any suggestions..?
thoughts..?

EDIT:
after posting this i found the section in the 1070 cadillac shop manual PDF and printed it out..
thursday, if i don't go see if groceries are available locally, i'll read the trouble shooting section again and check the points raised there for inoperative wipers..

would still like any hints from those of you who have services the wiper washer system in the past..

[Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373]

You could probably just jump the switch to take that out of the equation
If you are still unsure, I have an extra wiper switch from a Deville that I could send you to test yours. Just pay for the ride both ways.
Let me know.
Jeff

[Cadillac Fleetwood]

The "gizmo" under the black plastic cover is the windshield washer motor.  It is attached to, and driven off a cam on the wiper motor.  It is powered separately. You will see two blade connectors in a horizontal arrangement on this part.

Charles Fares

[billmorrow]

You could probably just jump the switch to take that out of the equation
If you are still unsure, I have an extra wiper switch from a Deville that I could send you to test yours. Just pay for the ride both ways.
Let me know.
Jeff

hello jeff..
thank you for your kind offer..
i DID disassemble the switch.. tested the resistor, OK..
tested some of the contacts and cleaned them with contact cleaner.. all appear OK..
it IS sort of an unfortunate switch that probably worked a LOT better a half century in the past..
with the washer cam action to switch on the wipers when pressed.. ordered some new silicone lube for plastics that should make that part work better..
not the switch as far as i can tell..
to your knowledge, are those switches more or less available to buy..?

[cadillactim]

I've rebuilt several of those switches, they look fine but have problems. Very common one is the staked connections come loose and current won't flow through the contacts. Thus the wipers won't come on.

Tim

[James Landi]

As you get "deeper" into the wiper drive mechanism and you study the circuitry, you'll find there are contact "points" that act on the gear cam to determine the "park" position when the cabin switch is moved to the off position--these points keep the motor running until the blades are "parked."  It;s possible that some oxidation build up has created the problem and those "contact points" need cleaning. Also, the plug that electrically connects the wiper can build up oxidation.  Try plugging and unplugging with the power and wiper switch on.  ALso, in the post above, the comment regarding the cabin switch may well (still) be the issue.  As noted, when "real" electrical current is called for, the switch fails because of the high resistance in the switches connection rivets and wire eyelets .  Often, here again, oxidation will provide you with a false reading if you're using a ohm meter to check continuity. That "poster" suggested that you temporarily bridge the switch, and take that potential issue out of the diagnostics... alas, sometimes, you can run into a couple of weak electrical connections, so your experiment where you simply "hot wired" the wiper to the battery, is a good place to start, thus, eliminating the most expensive component as defective.  James

[billmorrow]

I've rebuilt several of those switches, they look fine but have problems. Very common one is the staked connections come loose and current won't flow through the contacts. Thus the wipers won't come on.

Tim

thanks.. will try bypassing the switch entirely by grounding the wiper motor AFTER working out how to do that from the schematic..

THEN....

As you get "deeper" into the wiper drive mechanism and you study the circuitry, you'll find there are contact "points" that act on the gear cam to determine the "park" position when the cabin switch is moved to the off position--these points keep the motor running until the blades are "parked."  It;s possible that some oxidation build up has created the problem and those "contact points" need cleaning. Also, the plug that electrically connects the wiper can build up oxidation.  Try plugging and unplugging with the power and wiper switch on.  ALso, in the post above, the comment regarding the cabin switch may well (still) be the issue.  As noted, when "real" electrical current is called for, the switch fails because of the high resistance in the switches connection rivets and wire eyelets .  Often, here again, oxidation will provide you with a false reading if you're using a ohm meter to check continuity. That "poster" suggested that you temporarily bridge the switch, and take that potential issue out of the diagnostics... alas, sometimes, you can run into a couple of weak electrical connections, so your experiment where you simply "hot wired" the wiper to the battery, is a good place to start, thus, eliminating the most expensive component as defective.  James

most of the connections look ok.. not exactly clean and bright but do not appear corroded ..
will also put a pad over the fender and mechanicals and climb up so i can see into the washer/park mechanism..
would just remove the entire wiper motor assembky but so far i can't figure out how to remove the screen which the manual SAYS is over the port where the crank is disconnected from the wiper arms.. if anyone has done this please let me know how that screen is removed without damaging any rubber parts or the screen itself..

thanks for the suggestions..

[billmorrow]

today's update..
The wiper motor works just fine if given the power to run..
though there seems to be an anomaly present..
when i ran it manually it looked to runslow when the manual says it will run at high speed..
manual also says it will only park when running at slow speed..
will try to sort this out..
want a video, just ask..
the switch seems to function correctly and the riveted connections all appear fairly bright and good..
the issue seems to be in the wiring between the switch and the wiper motor..
there is a rather nice diagnosis chart in the manual..
next i'll need to make up some connections ton plug into the wiring harness at the switch end and test for continuity from there to the wiper motor assembly..

[James Landi]

Have you opened the gear box for the wiper?  50 year old grease often turns into a substance that does not lubricate, and could be causing the wiper motor to drag-- if that is the case, there;s an exceptional electrical load on the wiring and will dissipate as "resistive" heat.  Similar to your electric fan that slows down and begins to need "help" to begin turning, and a shot of lube gets the fan to run freely again.   Hope this helps,   James

[67_Eldo]

The suggestions that have been made are good ones and you should pursue them.

But in case the frustration level rises too high, here is my 1967 Eldorado wiper story.

As far as the washer pump goes, at first I bought a rebuild kit and "rebuilt" my pump. Even at its best, the stock wiper pump has an anemic "squirt-gun" output that is, not surprisingly, dependent upon the (sometimes slow) rotation of the wiper motor. I wanted more squirt!

My first relatively complex 3D-printed ABS piece was a new wiper-motor cover that integrated a mount for the standard generic parts-store Trico windshield-washer pump. I wired the Eldorado's washer switch to the Trico pump. I've attached pictures. After 2.5 years, my washer setup still works.

As for the wiper motor itself, my wiper motor died a few months later. Looking for Eldorado-specific wiper motors, I found prices that were out of sight! This made no sense to me because it is obvious that GM used the same wiper-motor design for not only Cadillacs but also all the other GM branches. Going through pics of wiper motors on eBay, I found that the commercial-chassis Cadillac wiper motor is identical to the Eldorado's ... except in price. A commercial-chassis wiper motor (then) was about $55 while an "Eldorado" motor was $200+. I bought a $55 motor and it also still works fine.

[billmorrow]

3-D printing..!?
that is, at present, beyond my abilities..
but might be in my future..
so tell us/me how you got the 3D printer to print what you wanted..?
there must be a software program to tell the 3D printer what to print..
very interest in your experiences and what you used to make that part..

the more-or-less final update to the saga of the wiper:
i continuity tested from the door wiper switch to the wiper motor and found two wires are broken someplace (and i now know where)..
SO!
I made up a switch i could insert in parallel with the 3 prong plug/socket on the wiper motor..
to switch the blue and white wires (but not touch the yellow wires) together which would turn the wipers on thus matching what the door wiper switch should be doing..
wipers worked fine.. see video attached..

the culprit is damage to the wiring harness as it runs from the driver door to the body..
see picture below..
there has been a problem here in the past and it was not well repaired so there have to be several wires damaged..
now i must take it all apart and repair as needed..
any hints would be welcome..

[James Landi]

Oh yes, the thousands of times those wires bend will finally break them, and often times, techs will use crimp connectors at the "breaks" to provide, what amounts to a relatively quick fix.  You might do this type of repair to simply "get by" and leave the more permanent, tedious and difficult permanent re-wiring for another day.  Just be very judicious about trimming the insulation from the wires, and very careful with the crimping tool.  If you have not worked with this type of electrical repair...I urge you to gain some experience away from the car, so you can develop the skills-- it can be self defeating if you mess up.    Hope this helps, James

[67_Eldo]

so tell us/me how you got the 3D printer to print what you wanted..?

I spent a lot of time measuring and using trial and error. The wiper-motor cover has a weird (obviously pre-digital-design) shape.
I used a cheap 3D printer and an Autodesk CAD program called Fusion 360. I drew the cover in Fusion 360 (many times) and then printed it out. I could have probably fashioned one out of metal more quickly and easily using a cover off of a salvage motor, but what the heck. I've printed a number of parts for my Eldorado since then.

the culprit is damage to the wiring harness as it runs from the driver door to the body..

This problem is the eternal bugaboo of cars that have electrical switches inside their doors. It is sort of frightening to think that I've been patching this type of problem for 50 years.

As James said, this is a wire-fatigue problem. Bend a wire 5000 times and it is probably ready to break. I'm irritated by the fact that auto manufacturers didn't develop more robust ways to fight the bending problem. For example, if they used fine-stranded braided wire (like small braided grounding straps), problems like this probably would never happen. Or if they built 'hinges" into the connecting wires themselves. Or if they used sliding contacts. But noooooo. :-)

I have two recommendations.

1. Don't crimp anywhere. Solder. Crimped connections in this situation, in my experience, don't last long at all. In fact a crimp, by stressing another part of the original wire, will make the problem worse in the long run. All splices should be soldered. This can be quite a pain because you don't have much room to maneuver and you may not have much slack in the wires you're trying to join. Get some sort of clamps or alligator clips or something to stabilize the wires and hold them out where you can get at them. If you don't have much experience with soldering, find somebody who does. Whatever you do, don't crimp.

2. Use the most finely stranded wire you can find as the material for your splice. Fine strands bend most easily, which is what you want. If you use the same gauge of wire that you're replacing, that's sort of OK. But gauges of wire for power-hungry devices like power windows typically are *not* constituted from the most finely stranded wire. The individual strands of copper in a 10-gauge wire, for example, are still pretty thick.

What I've done in recent years, if the problematic wire is relatively fat, is to splice a single "fat" wire (e.g. 12-gauge) with multiple lengths of smaller-gauge (e.g. 18-gauge) wire. The smaller-gauge wires are, collectively, more flexible than the original 12-gauge wire and, collectively, carry as much current as an equivalent length of 12-gauge wire.

A section of multiple wires provides me with a "bend point" in the overall connection that keeps the stress away from other sections of the original wire that may become stressed after the new patch is in place.

My $0.02.

[billmorrow]

thank you all for your detailed suggestions and helpful hints..
as i get into the door hinge wiring area i'll keep this thread up to date..
just so you know, one of my first jobs was with the telephone company in san francisco in the late '50's and BOY could i tell stories about that, such as 50+ year old wiring in the older central offices that had been subjected to vibrations for that time and had become brittle.. think grabbing a bundle of 1000 wires, solid copper, not stranded, and giving it some hard shaking.. the result was hundreds of open connections and telephone subscribers out of service and a serious job replacing it all.. i imagine these door connections can be similar.. in my case, there is a metal edge that looks to be or have been abvrading the insulation and maybe shorting to ground..
soldering..? i have a doctorate in that.. :-)
good hint on using butt type connectors to reconnect the broken wires..
when building things with wiring that gets flexed i would use a loop at the bend point but i don't see the door being a place for that..
SO, final question, are there replacement wiring looms available..? door wiring..? from looking at the wiring prints from the body manual i THINK there is a plug just inboard of the affected area..
anyone been into it that far..?

thank you all for your hints, tips and tricks..

[James Landi]

Here in is my attempt to put a "button" (pun intended) on the faulty door hinge wiring.  My 67 Eldorado, that I purchased when it was 6 yrs old with 60K miles in 1973 for cheap during the oil embargo had several broken power window wires broken...the wire bundle was originally encased in an accordion rubber "hose," so as a consequence, I initially could not figure out why my windows sometimes worked and often did not--- simply put-- a very bad design.   James

[Scot Minesinger]

The original wiper motor went out on my 1970 DVC after 48 years and 130k miles.  I bought a replacement and it parks fine, but it only operates at one speed instead of three and the switch is OK.  I don't care too much because it is not driven in the rain intentionally.  At GN 2019 I rainexed the windshield up real good.  Even though the 600 mile trip to KY was mostly rain, because I was driving 70 mph + the wipers were rarely ever needed.  Rest of the trip no rain.  I register my car as standard automobile like any other and am subject to State inspections, so I need the wipers working.

[67_Eldo]

SO, final question, are there replacement wiring looms available..? door wiring..? from looking at the wiring prints from the body manual i THINK there is a plug just inboard of the affected area..

I don't think there is an available subset of the Eldorado wiring harness that matches that application. In fact, I'd be sort of surprised if an entire wiring harness reproduction for the 67 - 70 Eldorado is available. But this situation doesn't require a complete harness anyway.

I saw that plug indicated in the wiring diagram too, so I'm sure it is there. But my least favorite location on ALL of the Eldorado is that nasty area under the dash. When I had to dig around up there, I saw no plug that was easier to undo that it was to simply splice the wires between the door and body. If you find an easily unplug-able plug up in there, please let us know! :-)

You touched on another element that I should have mentioned before: the metal edges against which the wires potentially rub. If the rubber conduit isn't already completely destroyed, I try to cut it open as carefully as possible so I can "stitch" it back together with tape later on. If there's an edge that will obviously shorten a wire's lifetime, I also try to create a little "grommet" out of split tubing or rubber hose to eliminate that wear point. Lubricating the finished, buttoned-up package with silicone lube isn't a bad idea either.

Historically, I got started with repairs like these in 1970, when some of the door wiring broke in my folks' 1966 Toronado. That car was an eye-opener in terms of what-have-I-gotten-myself-into complexity and trying to fly blind without a manual.

[billmorrow]

re. '66 toronado..
i had one of those in '67..
not very fast and the drum front brakes wore out as fast as i could replace them..
NOTE: i DID have a heavy foot..

back to today, the picture below is what i found under the wrapping of electrical tape holding the rubber wiring conduit closed..
someone, 20 years ago had the same issue and did what you suggested, above.. i.e. split the rubber conduit and reseal with tape..

from what i can see there are up to 2 or 3 butt connectors on each of the cables.. some of the cables are just broken with no prior effort to splice them..

now i am off to amazon to find some hew type of butt connector that has solder within so if you hit it with a heat gun (a'la shrink tubing) the solder melts and the butt connector plastic shrinks.. i've seen it advertised on fakebook and maybe elsewhere but never thought i would need some..
or maybe just solder and use shrink tubing..

when done, i'll find some old innertube rubber to cushion the wiring harness..

[67_Eldo]

That looks familiar.

Another detail that bugs me about repairs like that is that the color of the wire insulation that was spliced in is not related to the color of the original wire. Now it is too much to expect that you can find splice wire that exactly matches the color of the wire you're patching, but that's another advantage of using multiple small-diameter, finely stranded wire to splice larger original gauges. If your original wire is yellow/orange, then your splice can consist of one (or more) yellow wires and one (or more) orange wires. At least it gives you a fighting chance if, for some reason, you can only see a small portion of your wire.

And to state the obvious, I'd re-splice any of the wires that have been spliced before, even if they seem OK at the moment. This is an area you want to open up only once. :-)

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Looks to me like the door was removed at one time, and they didn't bother to feed the loom out from the plug/s, but simply cut the wires in the centre of the gap, and joined them back after doing whatever repairs they had to do to the door.

Time for some detailed repair, so that everything in the area of most flex can move without breaking a joint.

Bruce.