Pre-war (up to 1942) Voltage Regulators for 40s Cadillacs

[39LaSalleDriver]

This may prove a valuable inquiry to those of us with pre-48 Cadillacs. When I purchased my 39 LaSalle it came equipped with a Delco 1102693 generator and a generic voltage regulator of some type. My presumption is that this was done owing to the rarity of the proper 118204 regulators for 1101056 generators.

Long ago I decided to keep with that practice since I'm not "showing" my car. I have been running a vintage Echlin VR 57 but I am noticing it seems that the supply of Echlin VR 57s are, or have dried up in the wild.

I know it's better to buy NOS regulators, etc., etc., etc., but I have to plan for a more consistent supply chain than hoping for the best on Ebay or some other collector who is cleaning out their garage. Since I like to plan for that future, my question is, will the generic VR 1 models work with the 1102693 generator? I also note that I can't pin down any solid info on whether the VR 1 regulators are for 6v positive or negative ground. Are these modern made regulators designed for either polarity?

I am also aware that USAutoElectric RM12018 should work for my application, but they are a bit on the pricey side of the equation.

[Alan Harris CLC#1513]

I am running a Standard VR-1 regulator on my 1940 LaSalle. The polarity of the regulator is set when you install the regulator and polarize it by jumping across the terminals. The instructions are supplied with the regulator and are very easy to follow.

Unfortunately, I am pretty sure that 1939 and back have a different charging system from 1940 and onward. They are both 6 volt positive ground, but the older cars have a two brush generator instead of a three brush.

[jackworstell]

Our 1937 Cadillac series 60 came with a three brush generator .......and later on Cadillac switched to a two brush
generator.......not sure of the transition date.  But  !941 Cadillacs were two brush I know

By the 1940s I'd say there were few if any three brush generators on automobiles

Regulators for three brush generators have two elements...cut out relay and voltage control element;
Regulators for two brush generators have three elements......cut out relay,  voltage control  and
current control

'Back in the day"   Delco Remy manuals advised that some DR regulators were for positive ground systems
and some were for negative ground systems.   Something to do with the contact points in the cut-out relay
built into the regulator.....one side was coated with one metal and the other side of the points
was coated with a different metal.   DR advised not to interchange the these two types of regulators

But as things advanced this aspect  of the cut out points was overcome and regulators became
polarity insensitive.  When was this transition ?   my guess is in the 1950s

So when I am dealing with generators/ regulators:

          I  check to see if I have a three brush or two brush generator
           when picking out a companion regulator

          If I have an earlier vintage regulator I try to research to see if it is polarity sensitive
            DR   had  "P" or "N"  stamped on one of the mounting legs to
            indicate the polarity of their polarity sensitive regulators

Jack Worstell

[fishnjim]

Good research project but I don't think it's that complicated.   A good period catalogue/manual or two would answer most.
A generator has a fixed magnetic field, so it's always able to make "juice" when belt is turning, so VR has to interrupt that circuit to not overcharge/boil the battery.   
So if the amp ratings match, they should function (and are for 6V pos).  Most of these are 35 or 40 amp generators.   So long as it has the right connections and it's polarized, it should work, unless it needs to be adjusted for the right cut-offs.   
What's lacking in this club is an online archive where people can store/retrieve such info, so we don't re-invent the wheel each time.   Should be able to pull up the '40 electrical easily but info and expertise is slowly going away.   I've raised this before but seems to be a dead ears issue.

[39LaSalleDriver]

I am running a Standard VR-1 regulator on my 1940 LaSalle. The polarity of the regulator is set when you install the regulator and polarize it by jumping across the terminals. The instructions are supplied with the regulator and are very easy to follow.

Unfortunately, I am pretty sure that 1939 and back have a different charging system from 1940 and onward. They are both 6 volt positive ground, but the older cars have a two brush generator instead of a three brush.

I guess I'm not communicating clearly so I will attempt to clarify. My car DOES NOT have the stock generator and voltage regulator setup for 1939 cars (1101056 generator and 118204 regulator). It was converted if you will, to a setup for a 1942 car owing to lack of easy access to voltage regulators for 1939 cars (1102693 generator and 118202 regulator).

That being said, in order to stop any potential flow of "bad" information, the polarity of a voltage regulator cannot be changed. The polarization you reference is for the generator, it's just done at the regulator. As Jack points out below, in those days, regulators were marked either "P" for positive, or "N" for negative grounding. Using the wrong one will work, but it leads to a severely shortened life span for your regulator.

Again, as Jack points out, at some point, some voltage regulators started being designed and made to be "bipolar" if you will. All I am trying to establish is if the run of the mill, generic VR 1 6v regulators off the shelf are "Bipolar", "Positive", or "Negative".

'Back in the day"   Delco Remy manuals advised that some DR regulators were for positive ground systems
and some were for negative ground systems.   Something to do with the contact points in the cut-out relay
built into the regulator.....one side was coated with one metal and the other side of the points
was coated with a different metal.   DR advised not to interchange the these two types of regulators

But as things advanced this aspect  of the cut out points was overcome and regulators became
polarity insensitive.  When was this transition ?   my guess is in the 1950s

Thanks Jack, that was exactly the information I was looking for.

[Jamurray]

For what it's worth, I finally tired of worrying about voltage regulators on my '40 LaSalle. I got mine from Bill Howard. He was very helpful. For under $200 I have a positive to ground alternator and no regulator worries. It's more costly, but you can get an alternator that looks like your generator. No one will ever know.

[39LaSalleDriver]

For what it's worth, I finally tired of worrying about voltage regulators on my '40 LaSalle. I got mine from Bill Howard. He was very helpful. For under $200 I have a positive to ground alternator and no regulator worries. It's more costly, but you can get an alternator that looks like your generator. No one will ever know.

Really? Do tell. I like the concept of GenerNators, but those are a little out of my price range vs. hassle factor. I'd be all about it if someone could rebuild my generator to be an alternator for a $200 or so price tag.

So who is Bill Howard and what exactly can he do for me? Is this a situation where he guts my generator and rebuilds the innards to be an alternator a la GenerNators? That would be my definition of "no one will ever know" and I would be on that like a tick on a dog. Or does he rig some sort of aftermarket alternator that may look kinda similar to a stock generator and bracket that you drop into place, which blends in and looks sorta okay unless you really look at it? That may work for some folks, but I really don't want to go that route.

The visual elements are very important to me. It's just a quirk of mine that when I look, or show somebody what's under the hood I want it to look fairly spot on to what left the factory as much as is practical. Internally though, I don't really care. If I can get something that works better but maintain the same look on the outside, that's great. In my case, even though I am running a 1942 generator/regulator setup, other than the model number on the generator and the slightly different cover on the regulator, it is indistinguishable from the 1939 setup. Or at least close enough for my tastes anyway.

[jackworstell]

For what it's worth, I finally tired of worrying about voltage regulators on my '40 LaSalle. I got mine from Bill Howard. He was very helpful. For under $200 I have a positive to ground alternator and no regulator worries. It's more costly, but you can get an alternator that looks like your generator. No one will ever know.

We bought a CS 121 alternator converted to 6V /positive ground from Howard Enterprises of Iola Kanasas
........the same Bill Howard ?    We bought it for our 1937 Cadillac Series 60.
Is this what you bought for your 1940 LaSalle ?

Or did you buy a GenerNator sort of alternator from him ( if the same Bill Howard ) ?
A GenerNator type alternator for less than $200 would be an incredible bargain


By the way...it was a pleasure to deal with Bill Howard

[Barry M Wheeler #2189]

Terry Wenger has been messing with that era of cars for 50 years. Give him a call if you need to (not that the advice Jack gave isn't enough...he's a good friend, too.)  He is in the Directory. Tell him "hello" when you call. Not only does he "know" the cars, he accepted my daughter into his home years ago when she interned in St. Louis. AND when her 1973 Chevrolet gave out in East St. Louis, went out to get her at night, and loaned her Nancy's VW the next morning so she could start her job on time. (He chewed me out up one side and down the other for letting her get stranded in such a dangerous town.)

In other words, you can take his suggestions and advice as gospel, and is a wonderful friend besides. Good luck.

[z3skybolt]

USNtar,

As usual I can only pass along my personal experience. I purchased a NOS correct voltage regulator for my 1940 LaSalle on Ebay.  It looked new and had all the correct numbers. It lasted 75 miles and quit.

I then found this on the Brillman site. It is newly manufactured in the USA!  It was pricey but glad to buy American made instead of Chinese Junk. It has worked perfectly for 2,000 miles so far. It is a direct replacement and positive ground.

https://brillman.com/product/6-volt-voltage-regulator-positive-ground/

Good Luck,

Bob

[39LaSalleDriver]

Thanks guys. Lacking further information, I'm guessing this Bill Howard fellow is probably selling the CS 121 alternator setup as Jack mentioned. I just can't imaging he is making a GenerNator type unit for $200, but if he is, I'd whip my wallet out so fast it'd make Wild Bill Hickock's head spin.

Thanks also to Bob for the Brillman recommendation, I always forget about them even though I've bought stuff from them in the past with good success.

[Jamurray]

I should have been more precise in my earlier comment. Under $200 got me a 6 volt, positive ground alternator that looks like an alternator. It doesn't look like the generator that came with a new LaSalle. There's a source for alternators that look like generators, but the price is significantly higher than what I paid. I guess if authenticity was paramount, my choice of alternator style may have been different. I am sorry for any confusion.

[jackworstell]

I should have been more precise in my earlier comment. Under $200 got me a 6 volt, positive ground alternator that looks like an alternator. It doesn't look like the generator that came with a new LaSalle. There's a source for alternators that look like generators, but the price is significantly higher than what I paid. I guess if authenticity was paramount, my choice of alternator style may have been different. I am sorry for any confusion.

Did you buy a converted CS 121 alternator from Howard Enterprises in Iola  Kansas ?

I'm curious about this because several years back when we wanted an alternater for our 1937 series 60
the only one we could find ( other than the very expensive GenerNator types ) that we could fit to the engine
was a converted CS 121. 
This was because the way the front of the 346 engine is made....it is
very difficult to fit any other unit (that we could find ) unit to the front of the engine
Even with the CS 121 we had to make up a special mounting plate and do a little machining on the
CS 121

Jack Worstell

[Jamurray]

Yes, I bought mine from Howard Enterprises. Mounting it was tricky, but I didn't have to machine the alternator. I did get a slightly longer belt, I think. There is a mounting kit available from another supplier that may have made my installation easier, but I didn't know about it.