Pre-war (up to 1942) Voltage Regulator Problems

[Daryl Chesterman]

Jon, my observation as to rapping the ammeter came from this paragraph you wrote:

So what I do know for fact now is that I was having a problem with the ammeter pegging in August of last year. I had the generator rebuilt for a different reason, but the problem still persisted after the rebuild. I have driven it for several more months and noticed that sometimes the ammeter pegs, sometimes it doesn't. I learned that if I pulled over and gave it a rap with my knuckles it would bounce back down to the middle of the gauge for the time being. Getting tired of that routine, I decided to solve the problem. The situation with the ammeter existed both before and after the generator rebuild so I can't imagine that the generator is the source of the issue but will check as best I can.

if I pulled over and gave it a rap with my knuckles it would bounce back down to the middle of the gauge

The "it" you referred to I assumed to be the ammeter since there was no mention of the voltage regulator.  My theory still stands that there is a short in the wiring, although with your clarification, it must be in the wiring connected to the voltage regulator.  Jack Worstell pointed this out in his post and I think he is spot on!

Daryl Chesterman

[39LaSalleDriver]

Jon, my observation as to rapping the ammeter came from this paragraph you wrote:


The "it" you referred to I assumed to be the ammeter since there was no mention of the voltage regulator.  My theory still stands that there is a short in the wiring, although with your clarification, it must be in the wiring connected to the voltage regulator.  Jack Worstell pointed this out in his post and I think he is spot on!

Daryl Chesterman

Ah...right you are. I failed to differentiate.    No, I get out and give the voltage regulator a knock and it all bounces back into line. Thanks for the idea though. I'm going to keep digging until I root this gremlin out.

[39LaSalleDriver]

Starting over again.

After much frustration and experimentation, I decided to start over again from the point I was before I started fooling with the charging system. Reason being I was getting no satisfaction or solution from any corrections I was trying.

I installed a brand new USAutoElectric voltage regulator and polarized the system. I failed to check battery charge prior to starting. Ammeter gauge pointed straight to center with ignition off. Turn key on, gauge moved down to ¼ mark. Press starter button, no movement of ammeter. Start car, ammeter stays at ¼ mark while idling or while at speed. Dips towards discharge when turning headlights on. Put voltmeter on battery posts while goosing engine and no voltage fluctuation. Generator shows an output of 6v +/- at idle speed, and 7.5v +/- while racing the engine up somewhat. Very loud distinct ticking/clicking noise heard coming from behind speedometer cluster. Sound is constant and changes in time to amount of pedal I give it. I can't hear this noise from engine bay unless I put a stethoscope on the voltage regulator. Drove around the neighborhood with headlights on for about ten minutes, and sat for twenty minutes at idle with headlights on. After stopping, I got a reading of 6.06v on the battery posts with voltmeter. Per some other posts I ran across on this forum which seemed to describe similar problems to mine, so I tried goosing the engine while pulling a battery cable off. The car died instantly. Not happy at all considering how much I paid for this VR. The behavior was identical to what I was getting from the brand new Standard VR-1 voltage regulator except the Standard didn't make noise, and I don't know if it would have kept the engine running when I pulled the battery cable (didn't try that).

Back to the drawing board and square one. I put the vintage Echlin VR57 back on the car and polarized the system. Battery was reading at 6.01v before starting. Ammeter gauge pointed straight to center with ignition off. Turn key on, gauge moved down to ¼ mark. Press starter button, ammeter dips down a bit and returns to center point. At idle it rides around the + side of center. Dips towards discharge when turning headlights on. Drove for twenty minutes with no additional load and ammeter pegs up to full charge and stays there the whole time with only a minor waver while driving. More or less comes back to center when stopped and idling. No abnormal ticking/clicking sounds from dash. Measured 6v coming off generator at idle, and up to 8v when goosing the engine. Pulled a battery cable off while goosing the engine, and it continues to run. Turn engine off, battery reads at 6.27v at posts.

Back through the mill again, I decide to maybe try a new battery to see if that cures the situation while leaving the vintage Echlin VR57 on the car. Sure enough, with a new battery the ammeter is back to behaving as per normal. Riding at or around the center mark, occasionally dipping towards charge and back down to the middle; and down to discharge when headlights are on. As far as I can tell, everything is working as it should now. For whatever reason, it seems the Optima battery that I have been running for 2 ½ years is possibly slowly losing its ability to accept a charge? I mean, I find it odd that it is holding a charge in the 6v neighborhood, but yet the ammeter suggests that the generator is having to continuously rather than intermittently shoot voltage to it to keep it going. If the battery is indeed going out on me, so much for the auto parts store testing the battery and saying it was good.

So for now I'm just going to let it ride and watch what happens to see if anything changes or if it holds up. I do have a ceramic fuse on the battery terminal of the VR, so I'm hoping that would protect the generator if anything were to go sideways there. Otherwise, maybe, just maybe, I accidentally cured the problem.

This of course brings up a new concern...why didn't the new voltage regulators work right? Perhaps I should hook them up with the new battery to see if that makes a difference. I just can't understand why both new regulators wouldn't register on the ammeter correctly, but the NOS one I've been running does. Perhaps the new ones are out of adjustment? Perhaps I should take them to an electrical shop to have them adjust them for me?

[39LaSalleDriver]

As a final note, for the record I did some analysis of the two voltage regulators I bought as replacements. I had purchased a Standard Motor Products VR1 regulator from RockAuto for $62 and a RM12018 regulator from USAutoElectric for $102. I can unquestionably state that both of these regulators were manufactured by the EXACT same company regardless of who sells them or how the box is marked. Externally, they are identical except for a slight color variance of the cadmium plating. The stamping “MADE IN USA” on the base which is missing the first line of the “M” is identical, and the rivets on the back side are clearly stamped by the exact same machine with identical tooling marks. There is no mistake that they are from the same manufacturer and made on the same machine as far as that goes.

Internally, they are exact in every respect except the following. The VR1 regulator uses a solid plate to which the contact points are mounted whereas the RM12018 regulator has a small, spring steel tongue which is riveted to that plate which mounts the contacts. Presumably, this gives it a higher level of sensitivity, I don't know. It is also worth noting that the contacts on the RM12018 are aligned perfectly though gapped wider, whereas the VR1 looks like the assembly was sloppy and the contacts are well off center. Otherwise, insofar as I can see, there is absolutely no difference between the two units. Are those differences enough to justify an extra $40? I don't know. Maybe. I suppose that is a decision the buyer will have to make. Anyway, this is just a side report on my observations of what is available on the newly made market since as we know the NOS parts are drying up exponentially.

[bcroe]

Thanks for the excellent pictures.  Perhaps the company did a cost reduction for
later versions of that part?  Those mis aligned contacts may not keep it from
working, but they will reduce the contact life.  I would expect to find an adjustment
screw that will change the maximum charging voltage. 

Part of the problem here is, just throwing parts at it is not getting results.  We
need someone to put on some gauges to follow its operation.  Can not contribute
much here, having never owned a system like that.  Bruce Roe

[z3skybolt]

USNTar,

Well I just don't know what to say.  I had hoped your newest VR would solve your problem. As a note....I went to their web site and it says that your VR is not adjustable for what that is worth. My NOS VR was adjustable. I screwed it up messing with it and took it to an auto electric shop and had it set properly. I reinstalled it a couple months ago and am keeping the one from Brillman as a backup.  Brillman's appears identical to the one that you got from USauto. The NOS charges about 7.5 to 8.0 at fast idle and keeps my batteries charged at 7+.

For what it is worth I have two Red Top Optima batteries wired to double the amp. Gives lots more cranking time. The car normally starts quickly. Cranks longer when heat soaked but I have never run out of battery power with the two Optima. They are about two years old and so far working as promised.

I once experience the clicking sound of my VR when I first purchased the LaSalle. It had and 8 volt battery in it at the time. When I replaced the 8 volt with the two 6 volt Optima....the clicking  has never reoccurred.

Keep us advised. So frustrating I know.

Bob R.

[39LaSalleDriver]

Perhaps the company did a cost reduction for later versions of that part?  Those mis aligned contacts may not keep it from
working, but they will reduce the contact life.  I would expect to find an adjustment
screw that will change the maximum charging voltage. 

Part of the problem here is, just throwing parts at it is not getting results.  We
need someone to put on some gauges to follow its operation.  Can not contribute
much here, having never owned a system like that.  Bruce Roe

My guess is they are cheaper to manufacture without the spring steel part or more precise fitment. But again, i don't know if that's why, or if it justifies the added expense. I am prone to agree that misaligned contacts can't be good though. But you are right, throwing parts at it has reached it's limit of effectiveness here from what I can tell. Unfortunately, these as well as my vintage one are non-adjustable, though I am given to understand that they can be manipulated by bending the contact plates or whatever they're called. All the manuals and reference materials I have seen state that you shouldn't try to adjust them, just replace. For me to get in there and fiddle around to get a precise adjustment by bending would involve a good deal of blind luck, so I think I'll leave it for the pros who have the proper equipment and know how.

USNTar,

Well I just don't know what to say.  I had hoped your newest VR would solve your problem. As a note....I went to their web site and it says that your VR is not adjustable for what that is worth. My NOS VR was adjustable. I screwed it up messing with it and took it to an auto electric shop and had it set properly. I reinstalled it a couple months ago and am keeping the one from Brillman as a backup.  Brillman's appears identical to the one that you got from USauto. The NOS charges about 7.5 to 8.0 at fast idle and keeps my batteries charged at 7+.

For what it is worth I have two Red Top Optima batteries wired to double the amp. Gives lots more cranking time. The car normally starts quickly. Cranks longer when heat soaked but I have never run out of battery power with the two Optima. They are about two years old and so far working as promised.

I once experience the clicking sound of my VR when I first purchased the LaSalle. It had and 8 volt battery in it at the time. When I replaced the 8 volt with the two 6 volt Optima....the clicking  has never reoccurred.

Keep us advised. So frustrating I know.

Bob R.

I suspected that the Brillman ones were the same so I am glad to hear that for future reference. At least now those of us who run these regulators have a few options to choose from. Those charging numbers look about the same as what my generator outputs so I have hope yet. I do really think the clicking is from the regulator being mis-adjusted, and I wouldn't be surprised to find out that it accounts for the weird ammeter readings I see. As for the Optima's, I've never felt the need to run two batteries to operate. Until now apparently, mine has never given me a moments problem or doubt. It always cranks pretty rapidly even when hot. Once I get everything sorted out, I'll definitely be getting another. Until then, I'll just use the backup one I got from Tractor Supply a few months ago.

My plan of action for now is to let it ride, and keep an eye on it to see if I have it stabilized. Sadly, the only auto electric company I know of locally (and had rebuilt my generator last year) got hit by a tornado back in March. It passed within 50 yards of their shop and didn't wipe them out, just damaged them, but they aren't planning on being reopened until mid July. When that happens, I'll plan on taking my stuff in and have them test and adjust everything so my spares can just drop in.

[39LaSalleDriver]

For those interested in this topic, I did some more digging around and turned up this discussion about voltage regulators and adjustments on the Stovebolt Forums https://www.stovebolt.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/816341/1.html

I think it makes for some very instructive and relevant reading to the topic at hand.