76 Eldorado front suspension

[Leary75]

I was thinking of re-building the front suspension this winter on my eldorado.  It needs a bearing on the passengers side front, and most of the rubber I can see Is kinda shot.  Was looking at different brands for tie rod ends, bushings and ball joints.   Was going to stick with AC Delco for the ball joints, but wondering if people have had luck with moog or mevotech for the bushings and stabilizer bar links,etc.  they are considerably more cost effective, but none are worth the time to do it twice...   

Was going to go with timkin bearings but again, would be open to recommendations.   

I put shocks on and was amazed at the ride difference , but there is play in the front right that needs to be addressed

Thanks!
Brian

[hornetball]

Use a lot of Moog parts.  Always been happy with them and they are frequently "Made in the USA."

[bcroe]

I was thinking of re-building the front suspension this winter on my eldorado.  It needs a bearing on the passengers side front, and most of the rubber I can see Is kinda shot.  Was looking at different brands for tie rod ends, bushings and ball joints.   Was going to stick with AC Delco for the ball joints, but wondering if people have had luck with moog or mevotech for the bushings and stabilizer bar links,etc.  they are considerably more cost effective, but none are worth the time to do it twice... 

I put shocks on and was amazed at the ride difference , but there is play in the front right that needs to be addressed. Brian

How many miles do you have (ball joints may last 200,000 miles)?  On
my 79 Eldo with 22,000 miles, I replaced all the rubber bushings, they
soon turned to mush with my vigorous driving.  But I kept the original
ball joints. 

On 2 different cars I have had FAILURES  of upper ball joints, not many
miles after replacement.  ORIGINALS are the best quality.  Bruce Roe

[TJ Hopland]

The 71-78's seem to eat lower ball joints and are also hard on front wheel bearings.  Seen them both flopping loose on a 50k mile car.   Uppers I have seen the factory ones (without grease fittings) still in good shape at 200k so something in the geometry calculations must have been a little off and all the stress that takes out the bearing ends up on the lower joint.

I hear a lot of bad things about Moog's current stuff but its also in the context of more current cars too.  Really crazy stuff like holes not even close to aligning so people don't even get to the point of testing quality.   Scary part is some if the issues may not be caught by someone that doesn't have a mechanical mind and get installed anyway.       

[Leary75]

The car has somewhere between 150 and 200k miles.  The speedometer was unhooked when I got it.   I can test the ball joints themselves for play and only replace them if they are shot.  The control arm bushings are all mushroomed and cracked, and the same with the stabilizer bar links.  Maybe it’s better to replace the rubber and leave the ball joints if I don’t need to touch them.   Won’t really know until I get into it and see if the wheel play is from the bearing or the joints or both. 

Should have done all of this when the engine was out 😕.   

TJ, I have read the same thing about the MOOG parts.  People seem to either swear by them or have a deep hatred for them.   Was thinking the ac delco should be the closest to originals, or maybe I’ll search for some NOS for the ball joints themselves if they need to go

Thanks!
Brian

[TJ Hopland]

If you are just wiggling the wheel with it jacked off the ground its likely the bearing.   Even though on these cars the spring is on the lower you still have a lot of weight pressing down on the lower joint so best way to check it is get a pry bar in there and see if it moves.  Other way you will find out quick is if you are doing the CV's you usually pop the upper and at that point it will just be the weight of the knuckle so pretty easy to feel the slop in the joint.   

Usually the first thing I have noticed when I have had a really bad bearing is brakes start to pull.  I think when the bearing is loose and the wheel wobbling around it pushes the brake piston in so when you hit the pedal there is a period where nothing happens as the piston extends.  Also since the caliper doesn't float that easily ends up with a lot of drag heating the rotor so that side ends up weak.  Had it happen with the 90's Chev 4x4 trucks that basically use the same setup as well as on Eldos.   Really amazing how bad it can feel and you don't notice a vibration or other issues.

With Moog maybe the quality has to do with when the part was designed and where its made?   That could explain the difference in opinion?   Maybe more current stuff is made by different people in different machines than the old stuff?   Seems kinda unlikely since old machines can cost a lot to maintain and operate and could also be the cause of issues,  they keep trying to make parts on worn out machines with worn jigs and molds and such?  Demand is lower for a 76 Cad than a 96 Buick so the Cad mold isn't as worn?   Could also be blind faith where people just believe in a name that was once good.   

[hornetball]

With Moog maybe the quality has to do with when the part was designed and where its made?   That could explain the difference in opinion?   Maybe more current stuff is made by different people in different machines than the old stuff?   Seems kinda unlikely since old machines can cost a lot to maintain and operate and could also be the cause of issues,  they keep trying to make parts on worn out machines with worn jigs and molds and such?  Demand is lower for a 76 Cad than a 96 Buick so the Cad mold isn't as worn?   Could also be blind faith where people just believe in a name that was once good.   

I'm a racer.  I don't do "blind faith," at least not for long.

The Moog parts I've used are front hubs for Miatas and ball joints for C2 Corvettes.  I purchased from Rock Auto (they are often a clearing house for old stock, so factor that in).  The Miata hubs were legitimately "Made in Japan" and had exactly the same fit and finish as OEM.  The Corvette ball joints were "Made in USA," fit perfectly and are standing up to vintage racing so far.

Only Moog parts I've used on the Eldo were sway bar end links.  No issues, but also not a hard part to get right.  Fortunately, my front suspension was in excellent condition when I bought the car.

Unfortunately, a brand name doesn't mean much anymore with most brands desperately seeking cheaper manufacturing.  But I can report that I "got lucky" when ordering Moog from Rock Auto.  It may just be that I was getting NOS.  One thing I do when presented with alternatives is I always go for either the mid-price or higher-price option.

[TJ Hopland]

I too have got some NOS stuff from Rock Auto but most of the time you have no way of knowing for sure what you are getting.   Wholesaler closeout is the only possible clue but even then you don't know for sure.   I have got things from them in packages from store brands that have not been around for 20+ years.   Every time I got something really good I went back to get more and they were either sold out or I got a different not as old one next time.   

[Leary75]

Thanks for all the advice. So much knowledge on this forum.   

TJ, at some point I’ll have to pick your brain on your fi-tech conversion.  My 76 is using a sniper, and I am curios with your experiences dialing in the tuning properly

Thanks,
Brian

[KOKNEYELDO]

Gents:

When I got my 75’ Eldo back from the bodyshop (down the bare metal, new paint and upholstery), I decided to embark on an extensive clean up on the suspension and engine bay area.

It was not until I spent at least a week (5-6 hours a day) using scrapers and wire brushes that I realized how bad it was.

The car sounded and drove great at the time.

Before I started “cleaning” I knew I would have some things that needed to be changed or fixed, but when I saw a HUGE crack in one of the control arms (see pic.), the c.v. boots were shot, the wheel bearings showed some movement (very little grease found during dismantling)  and the bushings all needed to be replaced.

So I figured “when in Rome” and bought:

Control arm (used) for $60.00 that I cleaned, painted
Stabilizer link
Upper ball joints
Wheel bearings
C.V. half shafts (2)
Hydraulic hoses
Steering coupler
KYB front shocks
Monroe rear shocks
Bushings (all them)

I still have the rear shocks, they work great and have been cleaned. When I find new 1/8” air lines they will be re-installed.

The majority of the parts I got on “RockAuto” and upgraded when needed.

With the help (and very much needed) of my local mechanic it took a couple of weeks and now it drives great.

The costs for those all of the parts was not bad at all and labor very reasonable.

I also installed new splash aprons on the wheel wells and radiator.

So I strongly recommend that you all check your Caddys just in case there is a crack in a control arm or another part that is covered in mud or dirt, since it would save you a lot of money, or more.

[TJ Hopland]

Thats interesting.  I don't know that I have seen or heard of one cracked there before.   You can tell its got a replacement joint in it because its bolted on,  factory was riveted.   That also explains why you only mentioned replacing the uppers,  lowers had been done before.   

I also notice in the photo it seems like the top of the joint stud is missing?   I'm thinking there is usually a bit of threads sticking up there.  Kinda makes you wonder if this maybe suffered a violent bearing or cv failure at some point or just a really violent mechanic that was going to get it apart no matter how much brute force it was going to take. 

[MaR]

My 50k mile '74 needed both front wheel bearings, both lower ball joints, both swaybar end links and both swaybar to body mounts. I used AC Delco ball joins, CR NOS bearings, and Moog endlinks and swaybar bushings.

[KOKNEYELDO]

TJ:

Thank you for the information as I did not know they were riveted.

A few extra pics are attached.

I bought the car in 1990 and it has never been in a collision (that I know of), although when I bought it, it was fire engine red.

Now is it back to the original "Roxena".

Thank you.

[TJ Hopland]

The latest photo of that crack is really interesting how the crack appears to not be going to the hole.   I really wonder what sort of forces were going on there.  Thats not at all how I would expect the normalish forces to damage something like that. 

[Leary75]

Gary, that crack is crazy, and scary. It must have seen a large downward force to split that much metal.   I am hoping when I pull mine apart and clean it up I don’t find any surprises like that in there.   Hoping to get the front wheels off this weekend and clean up the whole area. Then I can test the ball joints to see what’s what. 

Also your car is a beauty, the red is sweet looking!

- Brian

["Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364]

Maybe it is just me (and TJ), but with that crack, the boot pulled off and the signs of hard surface contact, I would look further for signs of a dramatic collision.  That control arm steel is probably as tough as battle ship armor, and it really would take a lot for that crack to occur.
Greg Surfas

[79 Eldorado]

I don't know if they're available for the '76 but if you can find Proforged parts they are an impressive brand. They don't sell every part number but they are my go-to when I can find them. High quality parts which are even e-coated.

Regarding the rivets use a die grinder with a carbide bit to remove most of the head and then use an air chisel pointed attachment to drive the rest of the rivet out. I tried drilling the first set I did and what a mistake.

Scott

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

In the picture of the knuckle (upright that holds the bearing cup), is that surface dimpled multiple times with a centre-punch?   Or is it a problem with the picture?

If it is centre-punch marks, then that knuckle has been rebuilt probably more than once, and the punch marks are put in there to decrease the size of the hole, to keep the bearing cup tight.

Plus, add the cracks, that suspension has had a VERY hard life.

Bruce.

[KOKNEYELDO]

Gents:

Thank you all for the posts.

I still know the guy I bought the car from in 1990 and will ask if it was in a collision when I see him.

When I left school at 16 (in London) my first job was a panel beater (aka bodywork repairs and fabricators here in the USA) and we were not allowed to use any bondo, so was only lead, English wheel, etc.

So there is no sign of any visible prior damage.

I only sent some of the photos that I took during the cleaning, dismantling and various stages of re-installation, but all repairs were done and it now drives great.

[Koa]

The latest photo of that crack is really interesting how the crack appears to not be going to the hole.   I really wonder what sort of forces were going on there.  Thats not at all how I would expect the normalish forces to damage something like that.


Accident - I would say.