1970s 1979 425 engine, won't stay running.

[V63]

Fleetwood looks real nice! The rear fillers are to be expected.

[35-709]

"My policy now is I change the oil first THEN the filter last after filling the new filter with oil first."

Agree, filling the filter with as much oil as possible (you won't be able to fill it completely because it installs at an angle) before installing it gets the oil pressure up almost immediately when the engine is restarted.

[NickD]

V63 or anyone I removed the oil pump again (just to be sure I did the job right the first time) and this time I noticed a hex head plug in the block just above the oil pump housing. Does anyone know what this is? If I remove the plug does that give me access to see anything with my camera scope?

Since I removed the pump again, I noticed that about 90% of the petroleum jelly was gone from the gears. Is it possible I did not allow the engine to run long enough to allow the petroleum jelly to dissipate thru the engine? I have a cheap camera scope and looked up the holes in the block as far as possible (not sure why I did this other than to try out the camera). I saw no blockages.

As I have said in the beginning of this post back in July, I am by far not the brightest bulb in the box, but I sure would like to know why I cannot get any oil pressure at all!

Thanks guys.

[35-709]

The petroleum jelly is there to help the oil pump itself create pressure, it does not have to go through the engine (although it will, diluted with oil) to do its job.   We too would like to see the reason(s) for your trouble!

[Chopper1942]

Since you have the oil pump off, take a rubber tipped blow gun, with the air pressure regulated to 75 lbs, pressurize the engine side of the oil pump passage in the block. Check the pressure reading on your mechanical gauge. It won't read 75 psi, because of normal clearances in the engine, but you should have pressure.  If there is virtually no pressure on the guage, either there is blockage in the passage to the pressure guage or there is a galley plug, lifter out of the bore, or a rod bearing has spun and they are stacked on top of each other.

Another thing you can do is with the pump off, remove the pressure gauge, blow air through the oil presssure gauge hole and see how much air comes out of the block at the hole for the pressurized oil from the pump. Should be a lot of air.

[NickD]

Hey chopper1942:

I followed your instructions in the first paragraph of your august 24th post. I got no oil pressure reading on the gauge. I must say I had trouble holding the rubber tipped blow gun to the port, so I did loose a fair amount of air. Also, the gauge I was using was an oil pressure tester gauge, not say an under dash mechanical gauge to read oil pressure. I am not sure if that makes a difference, but I thought I would mention it.

However, I also followed your instructions in the second paragraph of your august 24th post and I got a ton of air coming out of the pressurized hole.

My question is, are these two different tests that check two different problems and that's why I got different results. Or are they checking the same problem, and I should have gotten the same result.

In my mind, and I have said repeatedly I ain't the brightest bulb in the box, if they are checking the same problem is it safe to blame the discrepancy on my not being able to hold the rubber tipped blow gun properly in place to get the gauge to move.

Got any other thoughts or suggestions for me to try next. All help is appreciated.

[V63]

It seems to me the next step towards diagnosis is to remove the pan.

[Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373]

I'm just going to throw this out there, and disagree with something you've said several times here. You say you are not the brightest bulb. I disagree.
You are sharp enough to know that you don't know, and therefore smart enough to ask. And, you explain your situation quite well, which is something that we don't often see.
It sounds like you pretty much know the pan has to come off now. But,I have a couple of points. I may have missed this so I apologize if you explained it before.
Your gauge. Is it electric? Does it have a tube or hose going to it? Here is why I ask; I had an electric gauge that always showed low at idle or when cranking. It turns out that it was because I had a voltage issue that caused it to read low. Then, I used a wet gauge with a little tube going from the port to the gauge. I got nothing. Then I cracked the line at the gauge allowing the air to bleed out of the tube. Oil finally came out, I connected the gauge, and I was good to go.
When you crank the engine with the sender out, does oil come out? If you pull a valve cover, are thr rockers wet?
Good luck, and continue to keep us updated.
Jeff R

[NickD]

Thanks for the compliment, Jeff. I do try to be as detailed as possible, I have been told that sometimes I am too detailed, but hey I'm an old guy that requires a lot of detailed information in whatever I do (it drives my honey crazy, but she keeps me around anyway ha ha).

Anyway, back to the problem. I am using an oil pressure tester tool from Harbor Freight. It relies on oil volume not electricity for its reading.

Today I pushed air pressure in the hole at the block that goes into the oil pan (for the oil pump pickup tube). I heard (in the oil pan) what I believe to be bubbles so I feel that the pickup tube is clear. I am not sure why I did this but what can it hurt at this point.
 I also removed the galley plug that is located just above the oil pump housing (see august 23rd post in this thread) and installed the oil pressure test gauge to the port. My plan is to reinstall the oil pump and see if I get oil pressure thru the pump to the gauge. I figure that would officially put the oil pump "working or not" issue behind me. Again, not sure why I am doing this as I have tried using what I felt was a good used pump and still got no oil pressure.

I get no oil whatsoever to the sender. From what I can see (with a flashlight down the oil fill) the rockers are dry.

At this time, I really have no interest in pulling the pan. But who knows down the road I could change my mind.

I will report back once I have the pump installed.

[Chopper1942]

If you got a lot of air out of the port for the oil pump when you blew air into the oil pressure sender hole, you should get oil out out of the oil pressure sender hole when you crank the engine after you install the oil pump.

Try this. After you reinstall the oil pump, pull out the plugs so the engine spins faster, leave the oil pressure sender out, plug any engine vents to atmosphere, and while blowing air into the oil dipstick tube, crank over the engine. Pressurizing the crankcase will help the oil pump pick up oil. You should get oil out of the oil sender hole. If you get oil at the sender, reinstall a mechanical gauge and crank the engine. You should get a pressure reading. If so, install the plugs and start the engine. Should have good oil pressure if OK internally.

[NickD]

Thanks, Chopper1942. I will give it a try. I just have two questions: what is an example "engine vent to atmosphere"? and how much (psi) air pressure should I pump into the engine?

[Chopper1942]

Any breathers, oil fills, or PCV outlets in the valve covers, or block.  You don't need much. I would limit it to 20-25 psi. If you dont't have the pump on, start out low and see what it take to push the oil up the pickup. Then, maybe increase it slightly with the pump on.

[TJ Hopland]

If your shop vac is the type that you can switch the hose to blow that may be a reasonable way to put a safe amount of pressure in the engine.    Personally I don't think its a priming issue so I would not bother down this path at this time.   He had oil without the filter on so it was able to prime and the pickup must be mostly intact and not completely plugged.  After blowing air backwards through it it may indeed need help getting going again so maybe it would be worth doing??

At this point with the info we have I'm thinking there must be some oil pressure or things would be making a lot more noise or be a lot more stuck by now.   We just don't know if there is some minor ish issue with the pump or pickup or if there is a major failure somewhere bleeding off the pressure.

Did we ever get the valve covers off and confirm that all the rockers are moving?  I think I had the theory earlier that maybe there was a stuck valve at some point that bent a pushrod which let that lifter pop partially out of its bore.  The lifters are plumbed into a main oil line and would bleed off a lot of pressure if one wasn't in its bore.  Maybe we already ruled that out?  I could be mixing up threads.

[Chopper1942]

TJ, that is my concern also. If he can get a lot of oil out of the pressrue port but it won't build pressure, then he probably has a major internal leak, ie: lifter out or stuck up in its bore or a galley plug inside the timing cover has popped out. The galley plugs are usually staked in, so I would lean more towards a lifter out of its bore, especially if it misses when running.

[NickD]

Hi Chopper and TJ. I am going to first try choppers latest idea. If it works great (however I have the feeling I will be removing the valve covers). If not, I will pull the valve covers and confirm if the rockers are moving. Based on what I find I guess the next step will be to pull the intake, but I will report back before I do that. I probably won't get back to the project until late next week. I will let you guys know the outcome.

[NickD]

Another update: Good afternoon, guys/gals. Well, I tried Chopper1942's idea and still no oil pressure. I was about to throw in the towel and dump the project, but I thought what the hell let me try TJ's, idea. I pulled the passenger valve cover and found one nicely bent pushrod. So, I said dam let me pull the other valve cover and I found four nicely bent pushrods. They were really bent, and I was afraid that I would not be able to remove them from their bores. However, I used pliers wiggled them a little and they came right out. I must say at this point I was excited to finally find a definite problem.  I want to thank you two guys, V63 and everyone else for the help, it was greatly appreciated.

I did notice that there was some surface oil on the heads, not much but it was not dry. Remember this car has been sitting idle since 2006. There was virtually no crud or sludge in the head at all. I looked down the pushrod holes and in the lifter valley with a flashlight and it appears that the lifters are still in their bores. I have some old pushrods and I am going to remove the rockers, install the pushrods and see what happens. I will also remove the other pushrods and check that they are not even slightly bent. Hopefully I will get to this over the weekend. I will post the outcome.

By the way what would make five pushrods bend like that? My first thought was maybe the old dog jumped a tooth, but if I remember correctly, I checked that the rotor was pointed to number one cylinder on the compression stroke way back way back when I first picked this car up.

[Chopper1942]

While the engine was sitting for an extended time without being turned over, the valve have/had stuck in the guides. After you remove the rocker assemblies, take a 3# plastic dead blow hammer, if you don't have one go to Harbor Freight and get one (cheap > $10.00), and hit each valve on its stem. Watch the valve and see if it opens and closes. Now, rotate each rocker arm to see if they will move freely. Slide the rockers back and forth on the shaft. If they won't move, use the dead blow hammer to move them. Once they are able to move, slide them aside and if the shafts aren't badly scored, blow air into the holes, and then squirt oil in the small holes where the rocker rotate.

Pull out all the pushrods and keep them in order. Take a long wooden dowel and insert it in each push rod hole and measure the distance it travels. If it goes 1 1/2"-2" deeper, you have a lifter out of place.  and you will need to remove the intake and valley cover to reinstall it.

Inspect the 4 head bolts that retain the rocker assemblies. Clean off the bolt shanks. If there is a sticky goo on the bolt shafts or inside of the stands, you will need to clean the passages in the block and heads.  These bolts pass through the oil galleys and feed oil up to the rocker shafts.

The best thing to do would be to disassemble the rocker shafts and roll the shafts on a flat surface to make sure they are not bent. If you do this:
1.  Mark the stands from front to rear: 1-4 and the up position
2.  Get something you can use to keep the rockers in order from front to back
3.  Remove the cotter key, wave washer, and washer from the front end of the shaft.
4.  Remove the rockers, springs, and stands and keep them in order
5.  Check the shaft for straightness and wear and if OK, clean the inside of the shafts with brake kleen
6.  Check the rocker tips, push rod sockets for wear, and the lube holes for debris.
7.  Get some engine assembly lube and lube the rockers, shafts, push rod sockets, and both ends of the push rods.
8.  Take a long blow gun or attach a piece of tubing to your blow gun and insert it in each head bolt hole to the
    bottom and blow air into the blind holes. This will blow out any oil in the bolt holes. IF YOU DON'T DO THIS,
    YOU CAN CRACK THE BLOCK FROM THE HYDRAULIC PRESSURE.
9.  Reinstall the push rods and rocker assemblies
10. Torque the head bolts to specs.
11. Rotate the engine by hand and watch the valve to see if they all open and close. If OK, install the valve covers

Good Luck! Let us know what you find.

[V63]

Old stale fuel was probably the issue, it causes the valves to seize (glue) in their guides. Once they are stuck there is excessive play in the valve train that causes the pushrods to jump and get wedged ultimately bent. Chopper is correct VERIFY that the valves can compress as he outlined otherwise you will be wasting your time and parts. Typically the valves are practically welded into the guides in this scenario and the heads will need to be pulled and fully serviced, best news is the engine is 'non interference' meaning your valves should not be bent too.

If you remove the heads and take to a head shop I'm going to suggest about $500 for the pair to be rebuilt and fully serviced.

[NickD]

Wells guys I have come to the end of the line. I used Chopper's mallet test on the valves and the valves with the bent push rods would not move at all. The other valves were in working condition.

On the driver's side head, the first valve of each cylinder was stuck solid.
On the passenger's side head, the last valve of the last cylinder (back by the evaporator case) was stuck solid.

All lifters were in place with the exception of one, it was lying next to its neighbor. I was able to extract it thru the top of the head with a magnet, my thought was to try and somehow reinstall it without removing the intake. However, once I did the mallet test for the valves, I abandoned that idea.

I guess the next step is to pull the heads as V63 indicated. Even though I have a couple of used heads in the corner of the garage I have no desire to continue on at this time. I think I am going to let it sit as I originally bought it to use as a reference when reassembling my 1979 Coupe (another story all together).

I must admit that I did have fun working and solving the fuel system problems and the oil system problems. I was forced to go out to the garage and remove the dust on the toolboxes and get my hands dirty again (only kidding I wore gloves). I also liked chatting with you guys. Again, thanks for the help it was greatly appreciated.

[TJ Hopland]

That lifter laying on its side is likely a vast majority of your oil issue but it sounds like this engine has a lot of other issues.  These engines don't usually stick like that especially when they are still in a car.  Sitting under a tarp in the back yard sure but not in a car so this thing must have seen some bad wet stuff.