1960 rough engine Timing question SOLVED

[60eldo]

  So I still cant get this new engine to run right. Now while in idle it want to stall. If Im driveing and come to a stop sign it shakes and wants to stall. But it drives good once I get going. Timing. When using timing light standing in front of the car '0'is marked on the balancer and when properly timed 5 degrees is just about one inch to the right, but when engine is running ok the zero mark is about 3in to the left,,,NOT EVEN CLOSE. What am I doing wrong, very frustrated

[TJ Hopland]

So you are saying if you time it by the book to 5 it runs like crap but if you just move the distributor/timing till it idles fine then check it with a light its 3 inches the other direction which if 5 is 1 inch would be 15 after DC and 20 from where the book says it should be?

Have you tried to drive it with the timing in that eyeballed position?  I have had engines where something was out of wack as far as the marks. If you want to check your marks look up piston stop.   

Are you following the correct procedure which I assume is vacuum disconnected and plugged?  Are you sure you are on the #1 wire and closer to the spark plug than the distributor and other wires?  I have seen inductive timing lights not be accurate when the pickup is close to other wires. 

I just googled timing 1960 cadillac and the first several diagrams and photos look to me like a 472-500-425-368 so hopefully you are using a manual not the internet.

[60eldo]

IT DRIVE SMOOTH, ITS WHEN i COME TO A STOP, WHILE IN DRIVE, IT STARTS TO SHAKE AND I HAVE TO THOUGH IT IN NEUTRAL TO KEEP IT GOING, AND REV IT. aND ITS AT 12 DEGREESE VAC.. tHERES GOTA BE A LEEK.

[Lexi]

No pun intended, but 12 inches of vacuum "sucks". Look for a leak. Hard to diagnose from here. Clay/Lexi

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Jon,

Firstly, the timing settings are for Super Grade Leaded petrol, which you cannot get now, so the Shop Manual figures cannot be relied on.

Timing should be done with the Vacuum off and plugged, and with the timing light on No. 1, set the distributor to 8 degrees BTDC (Advanced).   When you plug the Vacuum into the distributor, the timing light should immediately indicate that you are at around 24 plus degrees BTDC.   But, this number won't show up on your pointer as it is out of sight up there.

This is normal.

But, before setting the timing, have the idling correct, for the '60, around 450 RPM.   But, I find this is too slow, and like it around 550 to 600 RPM.

When you drive it, iuf the engine starts to Ping, then you need to slightly retard the timing, until the Pinking stops.

Bruce.

[Big Fins]

In the initial post he says the mark is to the right of the 0 mark. BTDC is to the left of the 0 mark.

My opinion is, he needs to remove the distributor, get the engine set to top dead center, replace the dizzy to where it starts out going into the hole at the last plug position in the firing order, then as it turns going down the helical gear, it's now set to #1 position. It's going to take some finagling with the oil pump drive for everything to line up and drop in correctly.

Everything is clearly out of time on this engine. Rough running, low vacuum, stalling, all signs of it being out of ignition timing. Hopefully the builder has the valve timing correct.

[Clewisiii]

Be careful driving or running until you figure it out. I had a car that jumped timing, not a Cadillac,  but I did not know what was wrong with it. Stalled at every stop sign. I started two foot driving to keep the revs up to prevent stalling on stops.

Then it died. All the valves on one side of the engine bent and seized up the engine.

[60eldo]

  When the car is running the best I can get it. The pointer is flashing at the white mark. To the left of  0,,,, That is where the timing light is flashing Does this mean my dist is out? Also I think theres a vac leak somewhere cause Im at 12.Do you agree.

[TJ Hopland]

When you have it the 'best you can get it'  its still not wanting to stay running at stop lights?

[Big Fins]

When the car is running the best I can get it. The pointer is flashing at the white mark. To the left of  0,,,, That is where the timing light is flashing Does this mean my dist is out? Also I think theres a vac leak somewhere cause Im at 12.Do you agree.

Yes and no. The low vacuum issue could be due to the timing issue.

[60eldo]

  TJ,,if i put it in neutral, at a stop, it will stay running. Once i get going it runs smooth, not shaking

[Big Fins]

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Run it anyway!

In reality, the position of the distributor doesn't really matter. As long as #1 is firing when it's supposed to and the rest of the firing order is correct. For the sake of confusion, you need to go out, pull the dizzy, remove #1 spark plug and as the engine is manually turned over using the correct direction of rotation, have a second person put their finger over the spark plug hole.

As the engine is turning toward the compression stoke, the persons finger will feel the pressure. Now, take a rod or screwdriver long enough to reach in the hole, GENTLY, holding it straight to the angle of the engine and then when it gets to the very top of the stroke, you will be at top dead center. The timing pointer should be at 0.

Look at your service manual and note the position of #1 in reference to a clock. Put the rotor on the dizzy correctly and using a clock face reference insert the dizzy back into the hole with the rotor facing about 3/4" (2 CM) counter-clockwise of where you want it to be finally seated. As it goes down the helical gear, it should rotate very slightly clockwise.

As noted earlier, you will have to make adjustments in the oil pump drive rod so it slips back into the bottom of the dizzy shaft. The top of the pump drive shaft is shaped like a 'D'. The dizzy should fully seat in the bore at exactly where the #1 position should be. Remember to have the gasket between the dizzy seating flange and the block so you don't have to do this twice. Now you have to assure the firing order is correct, starting with #1 and working your way around. Snug up the dizzy hold down fork.

The car should start with a tap of the key, run at a slow idle and with the vacuum advance hose plugged, rotate the dizzy slowly until it meets with the correct timing mark on the balancer or lower pulley. Keep in mind that the balancer could have also slipped on the rubber bushing causing the marks to be slightly off. If that is the case, you can time the engine with a vacuum gauge getting it as high as you can by slightly rotating the dizzy either way.

Try that and see what you come up with.

[60eldo]

Thanks. Im going out now to see if i can find the vac leek using a propane tank with short hose attached, Then, i will do what you said, I think the dist could be off too. Remember, this is a newly rebuilt eng 2 wks old with about 70  miles on it.

[Big Fins]

I don't want to know anything about the use of a propane tank. If the engine was built properly, with the proper gaskets and everything connected to it is right, there should be no vacuum leaks. The 390 is one of the simplest engines Cadillac ever made.

[TJ Hopland]

Post what you are using for a firing order, distributor rotation, and cylinder layout so others can confirm you are using the correct information.  If you have something there wrong the rest of the troubleshooting won't matter.

What carburetor are you running?  And did it get worked on or changed at the same time as the engine rebuild?

Using a screwdriver to try and find TDC is only gonna tell you the ballpark, its not going to get you real hard numbers.  There is several degrees of dwell time where the piston isn't moving and a few more where its barely moving.     

[Big Fins]

You know how to do it, I know how to do it and a whole lot of other people here do too. I'm not a teacher by any means. But once you establish a base, you work off of it. There is probably 10o of crank movement in the cycle. That can be ironed out in the base dwell setting, fine timing and carburetor peaking. Those Carter's, assuming that's what it is are a pain with the fuel and air mixture screws. But the FSM gives you a base number of turns for all of it to get you started.

But if his dizzy is off a whole plug number, nothing is going to line up on the balancer. People running off with a propane tank to find a vacuum leak is something I want no liability in. One errant spark and it could be 'Bye, bye, Jonny'.

https://youtu.be/QEM3_0npi6E

It's the same mentality.

[60eldo]

 heres what ive done. i no  #1 on dist should be at 1 oclock, i couldnt get dist in there so im using 2 oclock and move plug wire ahead one space

[PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192]

If your timing is out you will have bad vacuum. All the same plug All vacuum hoses. As I pointed out before it is possible to get the car to run with the distributor out 180 degrees. Also Lou Commisso had a problem with a new camshaft on his 56 Eldo, it was incorrectly machined. Start with the simple things first.
Phil

[60eldo]

I dont no if i did this right please tell me. I rotated the balancer marked 0 and lined it up with the pointer, took the cap off and rotor was facing 9 oclock, so i removed dist and aimed rotor to #1 position. Still runs the same. DAM

[klinebau]

When the car is running the best I can get it. The pointer is flashing at the white mark. To the left of  0,,,, That is where the timing light is flashing Does this mean my dist is out? Also I think theres a vac leak somewhere cause Im at 12.Do you agree.

This would mean that you are running about 20 degrees ATDC (after).  I think the 390 engine should be timed for 5 degrees BTDC (before).  That seems like either the harmonic balancer has slipped so the that numbers no longer line up or that it was installed incorrectly on the crank hub.  I don't know the 390 engine, but with most engines, the harmonic balancer is keyed in such a way to prevent improper installation.

Rotate the crank so that the #1 piston is at TDC on the compression (firing) stroke.  If you don't know how to do this step look it up online.  I use a remote starter with the plugs removed and I put my finger over plug #1 spark plug hole.  When my finger gets pushed off the hole, I know I am on the compression stroke.  Locate the #1 plug wire in the distributor where the rotor is pointing.  Line up the rest of the wires in firing sequence from #1.  I think the 390 distributor rotation is counter-clockwise.  It doesn't matter where #1 is in the distributor as long as the wires are in firing sequence order from #1,

At this point, you know you have the distributor and plug wires in the correct places.  Now you can run the engine and see where the timing light falls on the balancer.  If it still shows 20 degrees ATDC, then it has likely slipped.  Using a piston stop and by moving the crank back and forth, you can kind of get close to finding TDC, and you can re-mark the balancer.

I just thought of this.  What is the condition of the distributor?  Make sure you have the correct weights and return springs and that they don't hang up.  Also, the vacuum advance cans unless fairly new are also a potential vacuum leak.