Hot starting trouble in my 39 Lasalle

[bariman]

I have been having some trouble with my 39 Lasalle.  It starts fine when cold but won't start  at all when hot.  Starter turns fine.  Spark looks good.  Electric fuel pump working.  Choke working. Coil changed twice. Improved ground connections.  Battery good.

I've run out of things to try.

Do you have any ideas?

[Joe Jensen]

You might look through the technical articles of the Self-Starter.  John Washburn did one on this issue in May 2019.  I believe John also did others regarding this issue.

Good luck!
Joe

[Carfreak]

Still missing Doug. 

He was a gruff old fart but knew what he was talking about and was a long-time friend.

https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/index.php?topic=105982.msg135346#msg135346

https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/index.php?topic=120807.msg212319#msg212319

https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/index.php?topic=65239.msg65439#msg65439

https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/index.php?topic=136678.msg306481#msg306481

https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/index.php?topic=129563.msg260784#msg260784

https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/index.php?topic=152793.msg413249#msg413249

https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/index.php?topic=175068.msg558788#msg558788

https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/index.php?topic=168671.0

https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/index.php?topic=151258.msg403725#msg403725

https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/index.php?topic=166561.msg507328#msg507328

[39LaSalleDriver]

I have been having some trouble with my 39 Lasalle.  It starts fine when cold but won't start  at all when hot.  Starter turns fine.  Spark looks good.  Electric fuel pump working.  Choke working. Coil changed twice. Improved ground connections.  Battery good.

I've run out of things to try.

Do you have any ideas?

I know you're not a novice, but have you added the extra grounding to the starter? That certainly helped mine. When I have this problem it's typically because of vapor lock and takes a bit of cranking to get it to turn over again. Might also be worth double checking your fuel pressure coming off the electric pump. I've had them go bad on me. 

[James Landi]

 John Washburn wrote terrific articles, and certainly worth the time to read them all.  In my judgement, I urge you to try putting  Marvel oil into your gas.  I've experienced your issue, it's frustrating, anxiety producing, and downright embarrassing. As a last resort about 15 years ago, I threw caution to the wind and dumped an entire quart of Marvel Oil and filled the gas tank... Problem solved,engine  started up when "summer" hot with engine temp gauge (mechanical) near 220.  As a precaution, I checked the spark plugs following over 1,000 miles of service from the time I started mixing Marvel Oil with the gas...they all looked fine.  I highly recommend this approach.  My theory, super hot gasoline in the super hot carburetor begins to  evaporate as it hits the intake manifold, thus the initial charge of atomized gas is very lean when it reaches the combustion chambers, ignites prematurely, (pre-ignition)  and therefore your engine reacts as if the ignition timing is too far advanced. I BELIEVE the Marvel Oil helps to keep the gas in the carburetor at a much higher boiling point, so evaporation doesn't occur at start up... (just a theory based on  positive experience).  Try it...     

[Jay Friedman]

I know you're not a novice, but have you added the extra grounding to the starter? That certainly helped mine. When I have this problem it's typically because of vapor lock and takes a bit of cranking to get it to turn over again. Might also be worth double checking your fuel pressure coming off the electric pump. I've had them go bad on me. 

Adding extra grounding to the starter involves grounding the commutator end plate, that is the outer end of the starter.  Art Gardner and I wrote a step by step Self Starter article on how to do this a few years ago.  It's not a complicated job.  For me wrestling the heavy starter out and then in again was the hardest part. If you would like a copy of the article email me at my address in the CLC directory and I'll reply with the article attached.  (I don't know how to post it here.)

[tcom2027]

John Washburn wrote terrific articles, and certainly worth the time to read them all.  In my judgement, I urge you to try putting  Marvel oil into your gas.  I've experienced your issue, it's frustrating, anxiety producing, and downright embarrassing. As a last resort about 15 years ago, I threw caution to the wind and dumped an entire quart of Marvel Oil and filled the gas tank... Problem solved,engine  started up when "summer" hot with engine temp gauge (mechanical) near 220.  As a precaution, I checked the spark plugs following over 1,000 miles of service from the time I started mixing Marvel Oil with the gas...they all looked fine.  I highly recommend this approach.  My theory, super hot gasoline in the super hot carburetor begins to  evaporate as it hits the intake manifold, thus the initial charge of atomized gas is very lean when it reaches the combustion chambers, ignites prematurely, (pre-ignition)  and therefore your engine reacts as if the ignition timing is too far advanced. I BELIEVE the Marvel Oil helps to keep the gas in the carburetor at a much higher boiling point, so evaporation doesn't occur at start up... (just a theory based on  positive experience).  Try it...

Jim, I think you are onto something. Empirical evidence counts. I agree the MM oil takes a lot of fight out of the modern unleaded fuels, especially the 85-15. The oil probably increases the viscosity of the gas, just enough to prevent percolation.

I have used MM oil instead of StaBil for years. It's worked well. I parked my '46 Chrysler for seven years after filling the tank and adding a few glugs from a gallon can of MM oil.  I started and ran it for an hour or so once maybe. I just sold it, it started immediately and ran well. New owner was skeptical it would run well withe the old gas. After he drove it home he called and said it ran fine.

Plus there is the added benefit of the MM oil keeping the top rings lubed.

 Dennis' problem may be the condenser or the timing too far advanced. Even if it's not advanced to the point of causing slow turning over when hot, it may be just a few degrees fat. 

Unless the engine has been properly overhauled recently, new timing chain, timing gears if necessary, distributor shaft rebushed, advance weights not sticking, I wouldn't rely on the timing marks for setting the timing. Maybe back off  the timing a little, by feel  and see how it responds.

I assume the points are set properly.

tony 

[tcom2027]

I just had a thought about your problem. I'm sending the exhaust manifolds off to be porcelainized so I need new gaskets for my LaSalle.

I ordered them from Olsen Gasket. THey sell a set with the intake manifold heater blocked off. You may want to check them out. They are USA made and reasonably priced. 

[Barry M Wheeler #2189]

First, get a double ended woven (if possible) ground strap about a foot long. Ground the transmission and frame with it. Take all of your little ground straps off and clean the ends to bright. (Like the ones from the Engine mount to the block. Take the solenoid off the starter and carefully turn the large brass washer around so that a fresh surface is available.
Re: The starter. The bolts holding it in are way over engineered. Replace them with shorter ones. Get a curved closed end wrench (5/8" I believe) to aid getting the starter on and off.
Sue has the right idea, and I'm dredging these tips up from when I drove a '41 back and forth to work, fifty miles each day. Best of luck. (That was 54 years ago.)

[z3skybolt]

Mysteries of a LaSalle,

My first LaSalle, a 1940 5227 was nearly impossible to start when hot.  Only dual 6 volt batteries and additional ground straps, as recommended above, enabled me to get her running, without draining the battery.  It vapor locked constantly and without an electric fuel pump boosting fuel it would have found myself dead along the highway every time.

Fast forward to 2021 when I purchased my current 1940 5019.  No electric fuel pump, no dual batteries, no hot start issues.  Starts instantly hot or cold, never stalls, never vapor locks. I have driven it 7,000+ trouble free miles.   GO FIGURE?


Bob R.

[James Landi]

Fast forward to 2021 when I purchased my current 1940 5019.  No electric fuel pump, no dual batteries, no hot start issues.  Starts instantly hot or cold, never stalls, never vapor locks. I have driven it 7,000+ trouble free miles.   GO FIGURE?


Perhaps your distributor is set in a somewhat retarded position. Perhaps your spark plugs are gapped somewhat closer than recommended or you're using much "hotter plugs" than are recommended.   As we know, a hot engine tends to ignite fuel as it enters the combustion chamber, so that the starter is working against a pre-ignition circumstance-- the car doesn't start, the starter is stressed, the battery voltage is quickly compromised. There's also the theory that the vaporized gas largely evaporates before it gets to the super hot combustion chamber. Plenty of variables at play, but the fundamental issue remains the same... hot carburated engines running on low octane,  ethanol infused fuels are a challenge.   (I've advocated the liberal use of Marvel oil in the gas tank... work wonders for me).  James   

[bariman]

my hot starting problem is resolved.  I wish I knew exactly why.  I have followed the many suggestions from the forum.  Lastly I located some alcohol free gas and replaced my two Optima 6 volt batteries.  The engine starts great now.

Previously I had the batteries tested and they (said) they were fine.  The Voltage was 6.4 both cold and with the starter running.  Nevertheless replacing the batteries helped a lot.

Thanks to all

[tcom2027]

You have two 6v batteries hooked parallel? Why? THe alcohol free gas probably contributed the most to improved hot starting.

tony

[z3skybolt]

Tony,

Two Optima batteries wired in parallel gave me much longer cranking power in my 5227 Coupe which was forever hard to start when hot.  When I had a single battery, it would always run down before starting the engine when hot.
Kind of a sledgehammer approach, but it worked. Never again was I stuck with a dead battery and an engine that would not start.
As I said earlier....my 5019, unlike the 5227 always starts instantly hot or cold. Never cranks more than a few seconds. Two different LaSalle. Two totally different experiences.

P.S.  I, for one, always used alcohol free gasoline in both cars.  So my problems with the 5227 were not fuel related.

Whatever works!
Bob R.

[tcom2027]

Thanks for letting us know. Two sixes in parallel will definably give you extended cranking power and since it works for you don't mess with success.

Years ago, and maybe still, there were 6-12 batteries available with a series parallel switch that allowed the car to start on 12v then switch to 6v once started. Plus 12v accessories could be connected to the car. Downside is the battery is large as is the series parallel switch.

You're lucky to have ethanol free fuel available at the pump. THe only way we can get it here is at a fuel distributor where it is ungodly expensive. Regular unleaded 85/15 is down to $4.85/gal so you get the idea. 

A second is to extract the ethanol at home, but that's not a subject germaine for this arena. THere are tons of YouTube videos on how to do it.

tony

[Jay Friedman]

...Years ago, and maybe still, there were 6-12 batteries available with a series parallel switch that allowed the car to start on 12v then switch to 6v once started. Plus 12v accessories could be connected to the car. Downside is the battery is large as is the series parallel switch.

tony...

Many years ago I had one of those 6-12 batteries with an Orpin series parallel switch on my '49.  In fact, it was no bigger than a Group 2 battery and the switch which sat on top of the battery was about 2-3 inches in diameter.  It did require some rewiring, but the major problem with it was something else.

The rewiring was supposed to ensure that the 12 volt circuit was only connected to the starter.  Nonetheless, when working the starter 12 volts somehow "leaked" into the 6 volt voltage regulator.  As a result I had to replace the voltage regulator every few months.  After a year or so cleaned all the car's grounding points, added an extra ground strap to the starter's commutator end plate and replaced the 6-12 battery with an ordinary 6 volt battery which has worked well ever since. 

[tcom2027]

Good morning,


I installed one in a '37 65 series years ago. THe owner wanted to install a 12v radio and 12v halogen bulbs. It worked well, enough so, that I bought one for myself to install in the '40 60 Special I had at the time. I wanted to improve the lighting, and install a 12v radio.

I didn't get around to installing the 6/12 kit it and it's been sitting in the original shipping box ever since. I don't know who the manufacturer is but if memory serves it was Battery USA.. Don't know if they are even available now.
 
I use a NAPA 6v Commercial batteries in both my prewar cars. Without looking at the data, I believe they are 850CCA.  THat along with heavy cables, new clean copper ground straps. No problem starting hot, except once when I got the timing too far advanced on the '39. I have also used CAT batteries which also have high cranking amps.   

Just for fun I'm going to measure the battery and the switch then post the result.

Finally, hooking a pair of six volts in parallel is a lot easier to install and a lot less expensive than a 6/12 unit. It will definitely turn the engine over with authority. It's working for Dennis.

[tcom2027]

OK, Here's the i nfo on the six twelve batteries. Mine was made by Antique Auto BAttery in the laTE 1980S.

The company changed hands and is now Jims' Battery Manufacturing Company. The 6/12 unit isn't shown on their web site. Check their reviews before contacting them.

THere is a company in Texas, Texas Industrial that may still make them.

THe battery measures 10"X10"X7" pretty much the same as a group 1 commercial battery.

THe switch has a five inch wide base, a five and a half inch length and four and a half inch diameter.

Mounting the switch was a lesson in patience and humility. I had to fabricate a bracket and cover for it, then mounted the bracket on the frame rail. As I said previously it worked fine as long as I knew the car. IIRC the owner installed Vintage Air in the car later on.

6/12 and 12/24 systems were used in the trucking and heavy equipment industries,along with compression releases for a lot of years. You won't see that on modern trucks.  Now CL8 trucks use two or four 12 in parallel A lot of the big Cat dozers and excavators  etc. still use 24 volt systems. No idea if there are any applications using series parallel systems any more.