1970s 472 500 Valve Lifter Disassembly and Cleaning

[impalamansgarage]

1971 Deville

I've removed the lifters in my 472 for disassembly, inspection and cleaning.
so far the flats appear to be perfect with faint circular patterns denoting proper
rotation.

The engine taps a little when it's cold but it clears up after it gets warm.
I'd rather not have that in my life any longer.

Right out of the gate, the 1st lifter I decide to take apart, the plunger will not budge.

Does anyone have any tips for getting the plunger out?

Thanks !

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

G'day Mike,

Firstly, before doing anything with the Lifters, make sure that you number each and every one so that they go back into their original position on the Cam Lobe.  If not, then you are sadly wasting your time, as putting lifters in different positions will lead to a soon to be worn out Cam, and Lifter/s.

Secondly, when pulling lifters out, I always check the bases for wear by placing one at rightangles to another one at the lower end, and viewing up to a light, see if the base is Convex or Concave.  If Concave, then they will need more than cleaning but reprofiling.  The good Convex curve should be a true curve.  When built, they are made with a 30" Radius.

The best way I have found to get the plungers out is to remove the circlip, and with a downward thrust, bang the lifter, upside down naturally, onto a wooden block (Hard Wood) and repeat till the plunger moves.

If it doesn't move, then try soaking the Lifter in a solvent to try and remove the varnish that is holding the plunger in.

Good luck,

Bruce.

PS.   Any pictures?

[impalamansgarage]

Howdy Bruce. It's been a while indeed.

Yes all lifters and pushrods were bagged and tagged to ensure proper ordering as I will only work on one at at time.

Excellent tip on viewing the bases. I will definitely take a closer look. All I've done so far
is place a straight edge on the flats. None of them are concave and they all appear to still have
a crown. I had assumed the crown is only about .001 to .002 tall.

Banging the lifter on my wooden bench yields no results. ha ha.... The first lifter is currently soaking over night. We'll see how it goes tomorrow. All others will sit and wait their turn in their bags.

I noticed in the factory service manual that tool J-4160 was used back in the day to remove the plungers. You basically place the lifter in the tool and rap it against the bench. Sophisticated!!

I'll get some pics of the lifters loaded into this thread.

[Big Fins]

I wouldn't waste my time on the lifters. They are probably perfect. Look at the rockers on an early 472. They absorb the wear. Bad oiling.

You already said the cam sides were near perfect. You don't mention mileage, condition of the oil, etc...

Put in a quart of Rislone, not to overfill, and run it for a hundred miles. Your lifter plungers will free up, but the rockers will still be worn. They were good for 75k on the outside.

[impalamansgarage]

105,000 miles. It's a survivor car. I'm the 3rd owner.
Oil seems fine. I change it regularly.

A couple of the rockers are a little wiggly for sure.

This evening I made a wooden tool like Bruce mentioned and got the 1st
lifter disassembled. Worked well.

In your experience what are the typical symptoms of a worn rocket assembly?

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Worn Rocker assemblies will show marks where the Rocker Arm hits the Valve Stem.   Any ridging there will need machining, plus the Valve Stem might need refacing.

Plus, have a look for any uneven wearing in the pivots and seat in the arm.

Bruce.

[TJ Hopland]

Yes I too was gonna say the rocker where it pivots in the pedestal. The lifter still takes up the valve clearance but I think they can start to wobble around a bit.  A lot of the rest of the engine was overbuilt, not sure what they were thinking there.   

[impalamansgarage]

Guys I will try to get some photos posted up later today. The rockers seem ok. There is a shinny
metal where the rocker meets the pedestal but it does not seem uneven. Also the pedestal
shaft looks uniform.

I've been busy figuring a way to efficiently dissemble the lifters. Will be using a piece
of white oak with a 5/8 (16mm) hole with a 7/8 (22mm) opening. The lifter will
sit in that, plunger down. The plunger will fall into the 5/8 portion.
A piece of pine with a 7/8 hole and a napkin inside
will go on top. SLAM !    Used that on the first lifter. Worked well. Also I've been trying
different solvents. The first lifter I finished looked basically new after soaking
all the parts in Chem-Dip. It moves up and down nicely now as well.

In addition to the mild cold-start tapping, the idle has has never been that great. To date,
nothing I've done to the fuel and ignition systems has ever addressed the idle. Basically the fuel
and ignition systems are all new and there are no vacuum leaks.

The engine runs fine fantastic otherwise with good off idle power.

I'd rather not throw new parts at it if I don't have to. That's why I'm going through the trouble
of re-working these lifters. I may end up removing the heads as well for a valve job, but I'll need to find a machine shop.

After starting on the second lifter and encountering the same issues, I think they are
all in the same state.

[TJ Hopland]

What are you finding inside the lifters?  Crap or just varnish sort of stuff?

[impalamansgarage]

Redish-brown varnishy looking accumulations on the walls of the plunger
and inside the lifter body. Really dark oil too.
(oil in the engine looks fine)

That is telling me that the lifters have not been moving correctly and letting new oil cycle through?
I'm not an engine guy so that is simply an educated assumption.

They are locked up tight at room temp. They might move a little after the engine is up to temp,
but at any temp under that, they are basically solid lifters.
I am having to soak, bang and cuss these things apart. It's taking a
long time.

After I dissemble each one, I soak the parts in Chem-Dip. That works a treat.
Upon reassembly everything works as it should.

I think this has been the source of my idle issue.

But I've not removed the heads yet, and I plan to.
So I'm not counting my chickens just yet.

I'll be making a YT video for my channel.

 

[impalamansgarage]

@The Tassie Devil(le)
I appreciate the tip using the wood block for the lifters.
man that worked really well and saved me a of time.

Guys I got delayed with other stuff over the weekend but I was able to
cobble together a system that worked to disassemble these lifters.
Keep in mind I've never done it before. Anyway instead of photos
I made a video over on my yt channel showing what I've found so far.
The flats seem really good to me so I'm just going to clean them up and run them.
This coming weekend I plan to pull the heads and start on a basic valve job.
Not doing any performance mods. Just want it to run smoothly like it's supposed to.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkqLqoRM3xc

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

@The Tassie Devil(le)
I appreciate the tip using the wood block for the lifters.
man that worked really well and saved me a of time. 

You're welcome.

I would be hitting it on the bench a lot harder, plus, pushing the plunger back in a couple of times to allow for more centrifugal force to get it to move when hitting it.

Please post a couple of pictures of the base of the lifters as I thought I saw something I didn't like in the video.   May just be the oil distortion, but good pictures are better.

Bruce.

[impalamansgarage]

Bruce I did see what appeared to be pitting on one of them. I am planning to replace it. There
might be others. It's slow going.
Melling part # JB969 is available at the local parts store.
I'll go grab photos of the bases.

[impalamansgarage]

7I and 7E - questionable
Replace - 3E - tiny pitting. cannot be seen in photo
1E - outside ring. does not catch fingernail
Replace - 8E - outside ring catches fingernail

#2, #4 and #6 look fine to me. No photo.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

G'day Mike,

Looking at those pictures, I would be having all of the Lifters re-radiised.

This will mean stripping each and every one of them again to maintain their interior cleanliness.

Pictured are lifters I took out of an engine that had been rebuilt, but run with modern oil, as in no Zinc in the oil.   Some look reasonable, and others totally shot.   Even the Cam Lobes were bad in a couple of them.

Notice the differing heights caused by wear?

[impalamansgarage]

Now that is interesting. Bruce I wanted to clarify one thing. Are you
saying that the lifter crown height on these Cadillac lifters was made on a 30 inch radius?
I did a little calculation based on a 0.842 lifter width and that comes out to a crown
height of 0.003. Is that correct ?  A while back I did run the engine while the valve covers
were removed and the push rods were all rotating well I thought.

I would have to find a shop that does lifter refacing. I will start looking.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

I am saying what I was told by a Camshaft maker years ago, that the 30" radius was the normal grind when reconditioning Lifters.

The other thing that I forgot to mention is that the Cam Lobes for flat tapped lifters have a slight angle on them to create a slightly one-way pressure on the camshaft to stop it walking back and forth in the cam bearings.   This maintains the thrust surface at the front of the cam, via the timing gear to stay in line with the crank gear and chain.

Roller Cams use a different method of maintaining cam positioning.

Pictured is an exaggerated view of the cam and lifter.

Things aren't all they seem to be.

Bruce.

[impalamansgarage]

Yes indeed. I actually just finished upgrading my old Corvette to a roller valve train. I found a parts vendor that provides a comprehensive kit.
It certainly was convenient not having to perform a break-in. It's back on the road now after a
nearly 2-year mechanical restoration.

I did find a shop for the lifter resurfacing, so as soon as I finish cleaning up the last two I
will be shipping them.

This weekend I'll be removing the heads to inspect the valves. I purchased a spring kit containing all new springs, retainers, keepers, seals, etc.... 
Not sure about Australia, but even here in the U.S. parts availability for these engines here is now fairly poor.
I now keep all old parts I remove, regardless of what they are.

My goal is a basic valve job while replacing all of the small parts. Hopefully I won't find any valve seat recession.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

All my parts have to be sourced from USA.

But, whatever you do, do not purchase Lifters that were made in China.   They don't last very long.   My engine machinist told me to never throw out OEM Lifters, unless they are really bad.

Now that you are refacing the lifters, what about the Cam Lobes?   No good running good lifters on bad lobes.

Bruce.

[impalamansgarage]

Yes that has been on my mind for sure.
I've carefully looked at several of the lobes through the oil return. They look perfect in my eyes with
no visible grooves, pitting, etc... I'll need to turn the engine over to look at them all
through the lifter holes. I can use my bore scope.
I really don't want to pull the cam just to look it over.

I'll be shipping the lifters off tomorrow. No China parts are making it
into this motor.