Air bags: pros & cons

[Porter 21919]

"John Elway forward pass travels toward its receiver at over 70 miles per hour; Randy Johnsons fastball darts from his hand at over 90 miles per hour; Pete Samprass serve booms across the net at 120 miles per hour. Unless you know how to play the game, youre advised to stay safely away. But should you find yourself in even a minor fenderbender, you may be on the receiving end of an air bag deploying at up to 200 miles per hour. "

http://www.libertyhaven.com/theoreticalorphilosophicalissues/ethics/suddenimpact.shtml TARGET=_blank>http://www.libertyhaven.com/theoreticalorphilosophicalissues/ethics/suddenimpact.shtml

[Dave Smith #17592]

You forgot the best quote from that article.

..."Any fatality is cause for regret of course, but realism compels us to acknowledge that few valuable interventions come altogether without cost. People die on operating tables during routine surgery, drown while enjoying an invigorating swim, get hit by lightning while out on a golf course. We can and should try to minimize the occurrence of such tragic outcomes, but as Milton Friedman famously observes, there is no such thing as a free lunch. Air bags save on the order of 30 lives for each one lost. It would seem on first blush that this lopsided ratio is an eloquent testimonial to the regulatory regime that mandated them in all new vehicles. Few public safety measures, we might say, can claim so enviable a record of success. "

[Porter 21919]

Dave,

Cool, lets get the gubmint to ban the car TVs and the cell phones, navigation systems and all the other nonsense too. Let all that junk work only when you arent driving the car.

I understand thet are working on breathalyzer starting systems, now we have tire air pressure monitors and who know what else they will come up with. It all adds to the cost, makes owning an old car cheap. Dont forget the new black boxes so the insurance companies can determine what happened.

Myself I check my tire air pressure constantly, the average idiot in America drives their car till it breaks, no joke. They dont rotate the tires either, or change the fluids for that matter.

On a recent trip on an interstate a car behind a fire truck just pulled right out in front of me, fortunately the center lane was clear, no rime or reason, then they pulled in front of the truck.

Drive safe and defensively, I havent had an accident since 84 (not my fault), the intersections are the worst, basically just too many people living too close to each other in a hurry to get nowhere.

Porter (from 40 year NJ fame, Maine is much better since 96)

[Dave Smith #17592]

Porter,

   You hit it right on the head!    It is pretty sad that the car manufacturers are putting tire pressure monitors on for one reason only.   To avoid future lawsuits like the ones from the Firestone Explorer blow outs.     Cant you just see the Ford Lawyers now?  "Gee mam, you ignored the low pressure warning, so we wont pay up in court".    

   I liked Firestones solution better.  Just take down your signs and put up larger Bridgestone signs!    What a crazy world we live in!

David  

[Eric Kahn clc 20839]

There is a federal law prohibiting any TV in a motor vehicle to be viewable by the driver while the car is in motion (this does not include rear view monitors)
all of the new in dash radios that are also TVs have a wire that is supposed to be hooked up (not sure where) so that the TV function is disabled while the car is moving

[Dave Smith #17592]

Most states prohibit any type of Screen in front that is visable to the driver.  This includeds navigation systems.    That wire that is supposed to get hooked up so they dont work while the car/truck is in gear is easily unhooked.   PLUS, like many laws, they are often not enforced.   Unless you *****off the Officer who stops you for a different reason.  Then youll see how quick he finds things to write you up for.

The bigger question:  If screens up front are illegal, then what about factory installed Navigation Radios?  

David

[Mike #19861]

 Precisely my train of thought. This government induced nannyism that protect us from ourselves, and the generally greedy and litigous public and legal system have allowed any sense of self respect and self preservation to decay into allowing and depending on the authorities to keep us from doing harm to ourselves, and expecting a financial award from those that have somehow circumvented the government mandated web of well being.

 We have been denied the privelige of making decisions that affect us in many instances, but hypocritally, are allowed to persevere in behaviour than will harm us and may harm others around us. This to the economic benefit if certain industries and avoiding a political hot potato that all governments avoid at all costs.

 The old addage the we are allowed to vote and go to war, but are not allowed to consume alcohol is one. We can light up a cigarrette knowing that it will kill us eventually, but also put anyone in the vicinity in harms way. We are not allowed to smoke pot because it is the essence of evil and the gateway to heavy drug usage. But we can consume alcohol unimpeded.

 We must have airbags in our cars knowing that it may mame or kill us because we are of a group of high risk. We are not allowed to disarm them because of the potential of a lawsuit. But, vehicles with only a front row seat have a switch that will disarm the right side air bag, but not the left side.

 We must pay for this benefit as well, with increased vehicle costs, weight and complexity. And the insurance companies that were instrumental in mandating them charge us all a premium to have a car so-equipped. All of us pay, weather we have an air bag equipped car or not. Because we will be involved in a collision with one of these cars, and we must all share the cost.

 Pity what this world has come to.

  Mike

[Randall McGrew CLC # 17963]

Mike, I love your phrase of Governmental induced nannyism.  That is priceless!
And of course I concur.  I understand that people want to be safe, and that they must protect their passengers.  Accidents are inevitable, not due to the car in question necessarily, but because the one element or variable that is so hard to predict: the human element.  

Add alcohol or a mental diversion and you have a problem waiting to happen.

Personally, I loathe and abhorr airbags, and all those silly features they load cars with today in the name of safety so the idiot behind the wheel can drive just as he or she pleases without thought.

And I should point out, that vehicles with night vision or projected images on the windshield are a major potential for confusion.  Basically you should go out knowing there is someone out there who will make a mistake and drive accordingly.

The pros to the air bags are that they do save more lives than they dont.

The cons are that they are expensive, delitarious to the driver and passengers should they go off unexpectedly or not when they should, and they perpetuate the lie that you are safe.  

You are not safe, anywhere.  It is an illusion, and perhaps a natural one, but an illusion non the less.  You can die from slipping on a wet rice kernel in the kitchen and break your neck.  You can die of a mosquito bite, a bee sting, a bad bit of pork.  A bus can clip you with its side mirror as you wait to cross the street.  Or a meteorite can fall from the sky and hit you in the head.  You can die of an embalism, or of Cancer without knowing you had it.  You can fall on the sidewalk, be hit by a bicycle or any number of misadventures without rhyme or reason.  Then there are the human elements...crime, bigotry, prejudice and greed.  Hell it goes on and on.  And finally, you are just plain going to die.  Period.  It is inevitable the moment you are born.  Get over it.

We are the most death aversive society in the world.  It starts from there and trickles down from there.  After that everything is rosey!!!  

[Porter 21919]

Years ago they had a buzzer when you started the car, people would just buckle them and sit on top of them, my 90 Van has the buzzer but I always use them anyway. It shuts off in a few seconds.

Granted you could have a system where the car wouldnt start if an occupant wasnt buckled, what would stop them from unbuckling after the car was started ?

The point is your insurance is to protect you from the unsafe driver idiots, we all pay for uninsured motorists.

This is a much GREATER problem nowadays with the millions of illegal immigrants in the US, driving with no license or insurance.

Driver beware, and air bags may well not save your butt, but we all pay for the air bags in the new cars, it jacks up the insurance cost for all of us at collision time, the insurance companies will always make money, no matter what you have to pay for insurance, mandated by law. Not that it will stop anyone from driving, whether a legal American or not.

Porter

[Dave Smith #17592]

Porter,

     Ah! but they did have a government mandated Starter-interlock system in 1974 and early 1975 models.  All cars required the front seat occupants to be belted otherwise the car would not start.   If you tried to start the car, the belt buzzer would sound to remind you that you didnt buckle up.     If you did buckle up, start the car and then unbuckle, the car would stay running, but the buzzer would screech away until you rebuckled.

    Most people just buckled them and then sat on the belts.  Clever people discovered that if you unplugged the seat pad sensor it would disable the system.  By mid 75 the feature was dropped from production.

    An interesting side note was that if you ordered the Cadillac ACRS  (Air Cushion Restraint System = Airbags)  then you didnt get the starter-interlock feature.   They also deleted the shoulder belts on the ACRS equipped cars!   Cadillac actually claimed that ACRS was great because there were no shoulder belts to wrinkle your clothes!   Honest!  I have the Brochure that says that.

    For a while I actually plugged in my Starter interlock to make it work.    I thought it would be a good anti theft feature.  But it was a pain in the arse when I wanted to hop in the car quick and move it in the driveway, especially to move a few inches when scrubbing the whitewalls.  

David

[Randall McGrew CLC # 17963]

Yeah I knew they had those.  I do not understand the big to do over seat belts but I remember the complaints.  They are uncomfortable, they wrinkle your good clothes, they pinch in just the right place, and (until recently) short people got it in the kisser.  Oh and they are ugly.  Well I dont know about that but I have had some that rode up my chest and pinched a bit.  Still I wear them.
I will put them in my 56 if it ever gets done.  But airbags?  No thank you.
Been punched by one and had a rib separated (and I aint small).  And you can keep all those stupid sensors and crap.  

I do like the autronic eye (mine works just fine), twilight sentinal and power antenna...those a fun perks.  

Crumple zones are a good thing, but my 56 had few (though it did have some I think).  As for wearing belts ... well if you dont buckle up, we wont leave the driveway.  

Now if only I could buy a big brand new Sedan DeVille without computers and all that crud....ah well.  I am forced to own pre-80s cars and am happy with that.

[Andrew 10642]

Initially, air bags were designed to protect those who didnt buckle up, which was the vast majority of people in the early 70s, given the lousy separate belt systems.  I am not sure, but air bag inflation rates were based on someone unbelted hitting the bag.  Thats why, up until a few years ago, there were so many people killed who were of small stature in the passenger seat, or driver seat when seated too close to the wheel.  Thats been moderated with "smart airbags" that base inflation pressures on weight in the seat and maybe  whether the seat belt is clicked(I think thats how they work??), and adjustable pedals that allow people to adjust their seat to the proper distance.

Im huge believer in the effectiveness of the three point belt and safety cage.  But compared to cars of just of 10 years ago, serious accidents are much less likely to result in death or serious disability when belted.  Unfortunately, that all costs money, but presumably it is also resulting in lower insurance payouts, which should lead to lower premiums, in a perfect world (Even I dont believe that)

Initially, I thought side air bags were too much, and envisioned everyone driving around in instant exploding marshmallow bags.   Then I realized that the side impact is among the most deadly collision and the roof rail bangs your head.  I know, it happened to me in 1993, but I forgot about the impact because I was knocked out!!  Very convenient.

It does *****me off that these new cars are totalled just because air bags deploy.  Got no answer for that one

[Bruce Reynolds # 18992]

Randy,

The only crumple zones in the 56 are the steering wheel, windscreen and the dash board as the occupants fall forward and distort the items on their chest, legs and heads.

Seat Belts are good.

Bruce,
The Tassie Devil(le),
60 CDV

[Lou 19028]

"It does *****me off that these new cars are totaled just because air bags deploy. Got no answer for that one"

Ill give it a shot.Deprecation. We all know that when you buy a new car ,the second you walk out of the dealership the value of your new car has just dropped $5000.00 or more. Generally speaking any accident in which the air bag is deployed will cause a fair amount of damage. Hypothetically lets say the car cost $20k new minus the $5k you loose out the door and the car is 1 year old with 15k miles on it.That $20k car(new) is now worth $12k at best when you figure for depreciation.Most insurance companys will pay out up to 70percent of the value of the car.That new car is now worth 8-9K!! When you factor in the repair cost VS the vehicle value ,it gets close to the "total" mark really quick.Do air bags push alot of cars over the total mark? Absolutely. BUT as far as the ins co is concerned totaling out a vehicle is a drop in the bucket compared to what the medical expenses would be if that same accident happened without airbags.Whiplash alone would cost more than $12K.  LOL

[Porter 21919]

How do air bags prevent whiplash ?

That thought hit me yesterday, I thought headrests were designed to prevent whiplash.

[Lou]

If the only thing stopping your forward progress in an accident is a seatbelt,then you will/could get whiplash. The seatbelt stops your torso not your neck or head.The airbag will stop the forward motion of your head to about the same speed as the rest of your restrained body.

[Yann Saunders, CLC #12588]

I agree and I disagree :

(1) Accidents are inevitable (I disagree)

(2) Basically you should go out knowing there is someone out there who will make a mistake and drive accordingly (I agree).

In summary, if you "drive accordingly", you have a 99.9percent chance of disproving the first theory that "(road) Accidents are inevitable".

Now Im not saying that youre "immune" to a fatal wet rice kernels, mosquito bite, bee sting, bad pork (unless youre Jewish), bus side mirror, meteorite, embolism, cancer, fall on the sidewalk or violent criminal behavior.

So TRY to stay safe at all times and lets all wish ouselves a peaceful, painless passing in bed !

[Yann Saunders, CLC @12588]

Porter,

In S. Carolina I have to pay an additional premium for "uninsured motorists" AND another for "underinsured" motorists.  The premiums actually appear on the policy.

In Switzerland (and I guess in most "civilized" countries) you cant get license tags for a vehicle (including pedal cycles)without a verifiable address as well as genuine PROOF of insurance.  

If, subsequently, you CANCEL your coverage or cease to pay for your premiums, your insurance company has a legal duty to immediately notify the police.  In such a case, you might be lucky to be able drive a few more DAYS before your car is impounded and you are arrested.

Of course, Im talking of a country of some 6 million inhabitants, with FEW (if any) illegal immigrants. When you live in a country of more than a quarter BILLION people, where borders seemingly are "porous", where anyone and his aunt can "disappear" with relative ease and where the "incivil" have civil liberties like you and me, WHAT can the law do ?

Our governing authorities have found a simple, effective solution: make the ngood guys pay for the bad guys !

[Randall McGrew CLC # 17963]

Accidents are only inevitable if you accept that 99.9percent of the drivers out on the roads are incompetant and dangerous.  From what I have witnessed...I am ready to make that an assertion.  Guess I am losing faith in humanity.  :/

[Mike #19861]

 Yes, they were. In the original spec that was sent to the manufacturers from the overly zealous Joan Claybrook of the NHTSA in the early 70s, they were to prevent an average sized unbelted passenger from serious injury in speeds up to 50 MPH.

 The lap belts had to be retained because of the real potential of the occupant submarining during a collision. Remember those knee bars on those cars with the passive belts? They would have been necessary otherwise.

  Mike