"Guest" Selling Items

[Steve Passmore]

Not that I really want to create controversy or anything, but I thought I should pipe in with my two cents.

Where I am in Canada (the Province of New Brunswick), the nearest Cadillac-Lasalle Club chapter is the Northeastern US.  If I were to join the CLC, I'd like to participate in meetings, events, and other activities.  Doing so would either mean driving 10-12 hours away (or if I joined the Canadian chapter in British Columbia, a 12 hour flight), or taking a $700 round trip plane ride.  So, what would be my benefit to joining?  I'd get the Self Starter and that would be about it.  While I'm sure it's a great publication, it's the only benefit I could enjoy from being a club member.  I couldn't feasibly participate in anything.

Dan, While I agree with what you say, if we all took that view there would be NO world wide members to this club at all.  I would be happy to be able to drive for 10 hours and participate in a  CLSC of America event, sadly from here in England thats not going to happen, the last event I attended was in Iowa, a 4500 mile flight, Ill never be able to attend with my car, and it will take a wealthier man than me to do that trip on a regular basis anyway, but Ill still keep up my dues. 
I'm the Librarian and area Sectary to a UK club for enthusiasts of classic American cars and we have Americans members who have been with us for years, they seldom passably never get the chance to come here but they still enjoy being part of the club.  I think the multinational membership adds another dimension to any clubs standing.

(Edited by me only to remove the huge blank space.  Bruce Reynolds  )

[Roger Zimmermann]

Well, that's a debate which can be endless...I was also surprised to read that Otto is not a CLSC member but, on the other side, he does help other people for free.
As you know, I'm located in Switzerland, I'm a member and I know I will never attend a club meet in the States. And, as a foreigner, it's more expensive to be a member (becaise of the shipping costs to the magazine) than for an American! On the other side, if I can afford to have 3 Cadillacs, I can help the club if I use the services the club provides.
As other here, I had the same behavior with people coming to me when I was the president of the Cadillac Club Switzerkland. During this time, Internet was a thing to come and few people had a knowledge how to search parts. With a '57 Brougham in restoration, I had to learn it and I never refused to help people who needed parts if they were not a member. My politic was good as many of my "customers" joined the swiss club as they saw there was help available.
Roger

[Fred Zwicker #23106]

In the past if a Cadillac or LaSalle owner wanted information from an owner of a like car, the best way to approach it would be to join the Cadillac- LaSalle Club for contact. Many of these owners either had experience or information they had acquired. I have many long time friends in the Club from this process.

Today, with the advent of the web site, owners try to reap the benefits from the folks that have acquired materials, knowledge and/or actual experience with no effort on their part. Also they expect this information instantaneously, with their only investment being a few strokes of the keyboard...... instant gratification. Why spend the cost of the dues?

One can be a member of the CLC without being in club organization, technical services, contributing to the publication etc. and many members are. They do, however, support the organization to keep the web site, publications etc. going. By limiting some of the message board access to members only, some potential members might be turned away, but some may decide to join to receive the club and message board benefits.

I think this matter should be addressed in a future board meeting.

Terry Wenger

Let's take a "common  sense" approach on this subject.

I agree 100% with Terry on this.  We can extend our ideas on this forum and try to single out individuals for one reason or another, but this will not solve anything, and can be counter-productive and lead to hard feelings. The correct way to handle this is through a thorough discussion at a future board meeting, and if the rules need changed, so be it.  In my opinion, everyone should be required to at least register to post. This is done on most forums and minimizes spam and possible fraudulent offers to sell vehicles or parts.

I also feel (as Terry suggested) that some of the access to our forum should be limited to CLC members.  Also my opinion is that it should be mandatory that the CLC membership number be listed under club member's name, such as I do.  Then those who choose to reply can make a determination of whether or not they care to do so if a question or comment comes up from a non-member.  In the past, many on this forum have been a great help to me and I would like to think that this was due to my being a member and the fact that I always posted my CLC member number with my posts.

Some people feel that everything on the Internet is free.  It is not free and our CLC members are indirectly paying the cost of developing and maintaining this site.

Accordingly, the CLC club should have the option of setting certain forum guidelines and parameters to suit our goals and to further the growth of our club. Remember that too much growth is not necessarily desirable (bigger isn't always better).  Maybe we should analyze all of this more carefully and work out a way to be fair to all, without being "politically correct" to keep a few non-members happy at the expense of keeping members unhappy, if this is the case.

Fred Zwicker
CLC # 23106

[Rick Payton]

I do agree that a person should have to register to post, that is only fair and reasonable.

I can also tell you that running a region or being a moderator is a lot of work that we do for free!! I am the Central Texas Region President and got the job basically because nobody else was willing to do it and I asked for it. I would never want anyone, guest,moderator, or a member to leave the club over hard feelings. Lets be nice people!

I  personally, would love to have more growth in our region of active members that participate and further the club knowledge and fellowship of its members.  However,I get a lot of people that are unwilling to join the club because they have a bad experience with a club in the past where someone says disparaging remarks about the person or their car. I understand that we are trying to make our cars authentic but the owner may like it painted lime green.

I would like for us all to be a little more respectful of each other.  I am happy to see any Cadillac in the hands of someone that treasures it and keeps it from the scrap yard.

[Steve Passmore]

(Edited by me only to remove the huge blank space.  Bruce Reynolds   )

Thanks for that Bruce, I had seen it but no matter what i did I couldn't get rid of it.


As far as this other topic go's and for the people who think none members like Forrest are reaping the benefits without joining the club, it might be an interesting exercise to see what percentage of Forrest's replies relate to him trying to get something for nothing and what percentage is when hes offering help to other forum users.  I have not been using this forum for that many years but I have no recollection of him ever asking for something, hes always giving advice, If membership becomes necessary to participate I think this forum will be a sadder place. I have used other forums without being a member, liked it and joined. If you cant use it how would you know if you wanted to be part of it?

[Ted in Olympia WA]

As to Otto's "List", the reason it was removed from the CLC Forum is because the CLC is not in a position to recommend, or criticise any supplier as it is against the Forum Rules "No disparaging remarks against other writers, Club members, vendors, or any other person are allowed."

I did not know this list was removed till now and I think the reason is stupid.  This list did not recommend anybody, it was only a complete list of vendors, that could be added to and improved over time.  What a wonderful resourse this was until someone decided that it was bad to give "free advertising".  In my mind this was a very bad thing to remove the list and if I was Otto I would be very upset; a lot of work and thought went into making this.

I say we bring it back.  This is what really upset me about some of these forums.  A few (or one) decide what is best for the many.

TED

[35-709]

The list still lives.  Clicking on HUGE VENDOR LIST CLICK HERE under each of Forrest's posts will take you to it at the Modified Chapter.
Geoff N.   

[RobW]

Well once again I guess I just don't get it!
I joined the CLC to become part of a club that shared my interest in caddies. I thought it would great to share thoughts and advice on how to repair them and where to find parts. I actually joined the CLC before I ever went to a LI Dreamboats show. At the first show I attended, I joined!
To me this isn't just another forum on the net. Its an extension of "the club". Not to chase anyone away but there are plenty of "free" caddy forums out there. None of which include the word "club" in their title. I feel as members we should have a bit more than the "drive-by" posters. Just like on other forums that have levels of sponsorship that afford more gallery space or private forum areas, or whatever.
I also think that if you enjoy the forum you should seriously consider joining the club and a local region/chapter.
As for the list, I think its nice to be able to have that info all in one place. But, when I see it here on "the club" forum, it seems to be "endorsed" by the club. It seems to say that its a list of trustworthy vendors, which may or may not be the case. So with that in mind I fully understand why it was removed. That said, I think its a bit nervy of a "non-member" or even a member to circumvent the rules and link the banned list in a sig. Then theres the other issue of non-members trying to set policy. Spend the $35 and then voice your opinion!

[Jon Riley #13576]

I believe that the primary focus of the forum should be to promote club activities and such.  I also believe that a non-club member selling parts to club members promotes club activities.  I also believe that a non-member helping out a member by providing advice so that the member can fix a problem on his/her car promotes club activities.   

However, I think that when Club "policies," or club activities are discussed - e.g., Where is the CLC Museum going to be located?; should we accept "modified" cars at the Grand National?; should we have a modified chapter; etc. -  then we need to consider the source of the poster.  I think that most people assume that all posters are members of this club, and take the poster's opinion as a "club members" opinion, when, in fact, it is not a "club members" opinion.

[Steve Passmore]

Does anyone else find it interesting that this post was started by a "none member" and created a witch hunt against another "non member"
Guess you must be sighing a sign of relief Ted in Olimpia WA that your late joining of the CLSC took the attention away from you or all this rhetoric might have been coming your way, I somehow think you never intended this backlash against Non Members or perhaps you would not have started this topic?  I read your argument as being against non registered users of this forum, NOT non members of the CLSC.

[Steve W]

I, for one, am not a member of the club yet, but I am registered here. I have a 68 CdV, nothing very special or rare or even collectible, not mint condition or show-quality. Its my daily driver. If I had a car worthy of actually being in the club itself, I probably WOULD join. (And, to be perfectly honest, money is a little tight right now...do I pay my membership fee to join, or buy that voltage regulator that I need? Oh, and how did I find out I should replace my voltage regulator? I found out HERE, in a response to one of my posts!)

I just come here with a few questions and needing help and/or advice from time-to-time to keep my car as nice and as safe and dependable as possible.

And ever since registering here, I have found everyone to be helpful and friendly and sort of like a "family", if you will.  But I am now somewhat surprised at what I am reading.  Seems like it started with someone wondering if just anyone should be allowed to post items for sale without even being registered here and it went in a totally different direction.

I don't know who runs this forum, but I guess it comes down to this:

If you want only actual paying members of the club to be able to post and give advice, share tips, etc., then make it so. If you want it to be open to others who have valuable insights and knowledge and are willing to share regardless of membership status, then keep it the way it is.

Speaking only for myself, I have benefitted greatly already by being here, and I WILL join the club when I can afford to, and, in no small part because of the generosity of the people here, INCLUDING FORREST. Every time I had a question, Forrest was there with advice, as were Bruce and others. Everytime I use the search feature to research something I need, there's Forrest and Bruce, as well as others.  But in reading THIS thread, I'm seeing names I never saw before seemingly criticizing others. Hmmmm....

I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

[Carfreak]

However, I think that when Club "policies," or club activities are discussed - e.g., Where is the CLC Museum going to be located?; should we accept "modified" cars at the Grand National?; should we have a modified chapter; etc. -  then we need to consider the source of the poster. 

Should we accept 'modified' cars at the Grand National?   Should we have a modified chapter?    

Jon, perhaps you have not been reading the Self Starter and not attending GNs the past several years.  There already IS a very strong and active Modified Chapter which received approval by the CLC Board at the 2005 GN in Des Moines.  Subsequently there have been 'modified' Cadillacs and LaSalles on display at GNs since.

The Modified Chapter consists of at somewhere between 125 and 150 CLC Members plus many Registered Guests who are non-CLC but can post and participate on the MCLC Discussion Board.  The MCLC Website has THOUSANDS of pages of scanned Cadillac & LaSalle documents including sales brochures, service and tech info, Master Parts Lists, Illustrated Parts Catalogs, advertising and other reference material available for ANYONE to use.  The MCLC is primarily a web-based group supported by donations and supplemented by the sale of some merchandise.  Many non-CLC persons who discovered the MCLC have eventually become dues paying CLC members.  The MCLC Members consist of many of the names that you see posting here to the CLC Message Board on a regular basis.   Others haven't 'come out of the closet' yet.   

Reading and participating on this message board for about 9 years I see that there is increased interest by CLC members in making updates to their vintage vehicles for safety and driveability.  These updates aka modifications could be as simple as retrofitting a dual reservoir master cylinder to a 1950s era vehicle, changing out the rear end or adding a grounding stud to a flathead starter.  AFAIK stainless steel exhaust and brake lines were not 'factory' so adding those to your car could be considered a modification too.  Additionally many persons are converting their brakes to disc to better be able to handle the stop & go traffic or more accurately idiots who cut you off.  Contrary to popular thought, a modified car doesn't always have a Chevy SB, chopped roofline, Ford 9" and so forth it can be subtle changes that make the car more user friendly on our crazy roads. 


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Going back to the original topic of this thread, being somewhat familiar with the software that the CLC uses for this message board, one solution to the question of Registered Member vs. Guest vs. CLC Member would be to fine tune the settings.  Look at the 'Signature' of a Forum Moderator, it indicates a title under his name "Administrator".   

A classification (or group) could be created to include a title such as 'CLC Member' under someone's name.  When registered to use this forum, a CLC member could submit membership information (cross referenced to the CLC Directory) and he would be added to the CLC Member group. 

Subsequently anyone who doesn't provide membership info would default to a group labeled 'Registered Guest' or something to indicate that he/she is not a CLC member. 

Not sure if this makes sense to most of you but the Forum Admin should be able to figure out what I mean.  Yeah, it would initially involve additional work for the Admin to get everyone online with the new title but I'll offer up my services to assist. 



FWIW, just as there continues to be CLC members posting without including their member numbers, I'm betting that a lot of 'members' posting their (former) CLC number who are not current dues paying members...

[35-709]

Excellent as usual, CF.
I would also like to point out, in response to Steve W.'s statement  --- "If I had a car worthy of actually being in the club itself, I probably WOULD join."  It is absolutely not necessary in any way, shape, or form to be a Cadillac or LaSalle owner to be a welcome member of this club!  All it takes is an interest. 
I would also like to say that I am quite sure that these forums have saved Steve W. and many others enough time and money that they could afford to join this great club.
Geoff N.

[STDog]

I read your argument as being against non registered users of this forum, NOT non members of the CLSC.

That was his original argument. non-registered "guests" vs registered forum members.
It had nothing to do with membership in the CLC.

Mike Josephic, was the one who brought CLC membership into the mix, like he had an axe to grind.

[STDog]

FWIW, just as there continues to be CLC members posting without including their member numbers, I'm betting that a lot of 'members' posting their (former) CLC number who are not current dues paying members...

Hey now, I resemble that remark.
It there as a reminder to me that I should renew once my financial situation changes.
Still, I suspect my number could be looked up easily enough, and there are plenty of people that do know where/how to find me if needed.
One doesn't hang around a forum like this of the MCLC for years if they are trying to hide.

I agree completely with you idea on making the distinction between CLC members and non-members.
Simple enough to do, and there are enough admins here to share the load so the initial membership settings won't be that big of a deal.

However, who will be responsible for removing  members from that group when they don't renew?
How long of a grace period do they have to renew?

Finally, the original topic, I agree with Ted. Anyone offering items for sale should register with the forum. That allows buyers a way to look for a history of that user, and some contact information that was at least valid to complete the registration.

[Ted in Olympia WA]

Finally, the original topic, I agree with Ted. Anyone offering items for sale should register with the forum. That allows buyers a way to look for a history of that user, and some contact information that was at least valid to complete the registration.

I sure appreciate that someone understands why I started the post.  My main goal was to warn members of a potential problem that I saw and to be careful.  "Guest" selling items is wide open to fraud, you have no way to determine who they are or what the history of the person is.  They could be using any name and you have no protection.  I was just trying to help and did not try to start a big problem.

Does anyone else find it interesting that this post was started by a "none member" and created a witch hunt against another "non member"
Guess you must be sighing a sign of relief Ted in Olimpia WA that your late joining of the CLSC took the attention away from you or all this rhetoric might have been coming your way, I somehow think you never intended this backlash against Non Members or perhaps you would not have started this topic?  I read your argument as being against non registered users of this forum, NOT non members of the CLSC.

You are way off base here Steve and at no time did I "sighing a sign of relief".  I'm in full support of non-members posting to this forum, linking to other forums is very important to me, and I very much appreciate everyone opinion and help.  If you look back at my post they have always been to help someone else to either to fix their problem or to find a part they need. 

The main reason I joined was to make me feel a bit less guilty if I advertised parts directly to sell.  But now I find out that the rules frown upon this and they only want members who "Pay for Advertising" to sell or be recognized as a seller (this shows me that the club is only interested in the buck).  Well this is not going to happen with me because I cannot guarantee a good supply of parts to sell.  I only sell used parts and once they are gone they are gone; I may or may not be able to find a parts car to replace them in the future.  Also I do not have the time to fulfill everyone's need in a timely manner.  This is only a hobby for me and I enjoy helping people when I can.  And to make a buck so I can use it for play money is a big plus.

TED

[RobW]

And to make a buck so I can use it for play money is a big plus.
TED

So prior to your joining yesterday, you felt it was OK for us members to pay annual dues so you could be afforded a "free" forum on which to earn"play money" without feeling any need to contribute?
As I said in a previous post. This forum is an extension of the CLC. It is paid for by membership dues. Its not like every other forum on the web that allows pop-up advertising or sells advertising based on "hits".
So if the membership decided that we don't care to read "The Self Starter" and stopped paying our dues, how long do you think your free captive audience would be here?

[STDog]

So prior to your joining yesterday, you felt it was OK for us members to pay annual dues so you could be afforded a "free" forum on which to earn"play money" without feeling any need to contribute?

No, in the past he offered a specific part if he had it and someone was looking for it.
That's the same as any other individual offering to sell a part they have.

That is not the same as advertising as a seller, saying contact me if you need parts.

Maybe it's subtitle, maybe it's because I know Ted (through other forums) , but I see a difference.

Never mind that he has contributed more than many dues paying members, answering questions and offering advice.

You remind of a politician/pundit, parsing someones words looking for the worst way to take what is said so you can feel slighted and then complain about it.

So if the membership decided that we don't care to read "The Self Starter" and stopped paying our dues, how long do you think your free captive audience would be here?

At this point I'm not sure I want to ever give the CLC another penny. I don't care to be a parts of a group with such a holier than though attitude. I probably won't be attending another CLC event nor patronizing the vendors there.

I hope some day you visit a forum outside the CLC seeking help, and I see it, so I can remind you that you pay dues to the CLC for your information and shouldn't be hanging out with the lowlifes that volunteer their time because they want to,  and to go back to the snobbish folk you belong with.

You sure don't seem to want the information non-CLC members provide here.

[Ted in Olympia WA]

So prior to your joining yesterday, you felt it was OK for us members to pay annual dues so you could be afforded a "free" forum on which to earn"play money" without feeling any need to contribute?
As I said in a previous post. This forum is an extension of the CLC. It is paid for by membership dues. Its not like every other forum on the web that allows pop-up advertising or sells advertising based on "hits".
So if the membership decided that we don't care to read "The Self Starter" and stopped paying our dues, how long do you think your free captive audience would be here?

As I said I have nearly always help people when they ask for it and needed it.  I would think that less then 5% of my customer base are CLC members and I doubt the club is the center of the Cadillac world regardless of you you may think.  I run my business completely honest and provide the best parts I can with full disclosure.

If you and the members of CLC or this forum no longer think my services are necessary, please cancel my membership, refund my dues, and I will gladly quit posting on this forum.  You can continue to buy parts from "guest" with no identity or history.  And you can limit yourself to only those who provide paid advertising.

TED

[Carfreak]

Ted,

Please don't allow the 'loud' voices of a few taint your views against the balance of the Club membership; although they may give the impression I doubt that they are speaking the opinoins of the vast majority.   

We need more people like you who are knowledgeable and willing to offer their assistance plus have parts available at fair prices to keep our cars on the road!!   

Over the 20+ years that I've been a CLC member I have met hundreds of great people and some not so nice ones, too.  Disregard those that fall into the second classification and enjoy the club experience.