I started my rebuilt engine briefly (a few seconds) and I'm concerned that I'm not getting oil pressure. With a rebuilt oil pressure gauge installed, there was maybe a slight blip when the engine first started then zero pressure indicated for a few seconds until I turned the engine off. Several weeks ago, I pre-oiled the engine with a Melling pre-oiler through the oil pressure port, then cranked it over for several seconds with no spark just to make sure the starter was working. I had forgotten to install the oil pressure line so oil flowed out of that port. That made me think the oil pump was working (it was rebuilt) and that there would be plenty of oil pressure. Oil also came out the port on the side of the block (near the filler tube) when I had that line disconnected. During the restoration, I cleaned out the oil pressure line and blew it out with compressed air. Does that line need to be filled with oil for the pressure reading to be correct? In other words, if the line is mostly air, will the pressure reading be zero? Thanks for the help.
Jeff Trahan
Pre oil it again til you have pressure.
Jeff
Hi…Did you put the "restrictor" back in the oil feed port on the side of the block and could it possibly be clogged? Did you pre-oil it with the valley covers off to see if you had flow up to and through the lifter blocks? How do you know the gauge is correct and could there be a blockage in the line? The factory oil pressure line has such a tiny diameter and maybe there could be a blockage? I wouldn't chance starting it, but maybe go down to the local parts store and get a substitute cheap-o gauge with the plastic line and give that a shot first by cranking it over with no spark. Take the plugs out to ease the strain on the starter and your battery. I'm sure you rebuilt the pump? There's only one oil galley on the driver's side of the block, which I'm sure was cleaned out with some rifle brushes when the block was washed? Some engines pump up quickly and some take forever when dry.
Bob
,
The first time, I pre-oiled it without removing the valley covers. So this time, I removed the valley cover and there is no oil getting to the top of the engine even with about 100 psi on the pre-oiler tank through the oil pressure port. Then I disconnected the line at the port on the driver's side of the engine block and connected the pre-oiler there. There was still no oil getting to the valve blocks. Then I disconnected the small lines inside the valley area and saw a very slow drip of oil. So even at about 100 PSI directly into the line that feeds that area, I'm getting very little oil. It seems like it must be a blockage at the top of the engine because the line is new. Any other ideas? I thought when the engine was degreased it would have cleaned out all the oil galleries.
I've pre-oiled another engine (1955 Buick nailhead) by using a drill in the distributor hole but it looks like this engine can't be pre-oiled that way unless I remove both the distributor and the "tower" that goes between the distributor and the block. Can anyone confirm that?
Thanks.
Jeff Trahan
Jeff,
Hi. You're going to have to analyze this problem one stage at a time. The oil not getting to the lifters is either not leaving the side port on the block, the steel line up to the lifters is clogged, or one of the brass fittings is clogged, and most likely the first one that the "main" feed comes into first. Every one of these fittings I've ever been into was almost closed off completely with hardened crud. I've sometimes wondered how the engine even ran under these conditions. The oiling system in this block is very simple. It sounds to me like you either have a blockage or an open port somewhere bleeding the pressure off. You can make an oiler out of an old distributor shaft if you needed to. Are you sure all the plugs in the block are closed off? I think someone here on the forum had an oil pressure problem and it was due to the crank plugs not being re-installed after cutting /cleaning. I have a few spare cranks here, so I could verify if that's a possibility. I know for a fact that these blocks are full of s*** when you break them down. They need to be cleaned out for hours upon hours, in-between the bores, the galleys, and scrubbed down. Before I send any block out, I will pressure steam clean it till it's spotless, pick away at all the hardened crud around the bores in the water jacket, go through all the ports and galleys with hot soapy water and brushes, and chase out every thread on the block. The machine shop will usually hot tank it, and thanks to the EPA, it does not do the same job as it used to do 20 years ago. Once the block comes back from being machined, I usually go through the whole cleaning process once again to make sure no swarf or particles were left behind which could easily destroy a brand new engine. Something's not right. Try and break each part down, because sooner or later you're going to find out what the issue is. Keep us posted and Good Luck!
Bobby
An earlier post mentioned a "restrictor" in the oil feed port on the side of the block. What is that? I disconnected the old line that goes from that port to the top of the engine and installed a brand new one. If I disconnect that line at the engine block port, oil flows freely from the port when I crank the engine. Is there supposed to be a "restrictor" in that line?
Jeff,
Hi. The restrictor is what maintains oil pressure to the lifters by funneling the oil through smaller orifice. Did the block have one before you took it apart? If it didn't, maybe they were running a remote filter which acted as a restriction in the line feeding your lifter blocks?
Bobby
Thank you for the photo. The restrictor is installed in the port in the block and the stainless line connects to it. So I guess I'm fine there. We disconnected the lines in the valley and blew them out with compressed air. Got some crud out of them and now oil flows to the lifters. How much oil should be flowing through that area? It didn't seem like there was a lot but I don't know how much is supposed to be there. I guess as long as the oil pressure gauge has a normal reading, we should be OK. Probably will be firing the engine up again tomorrow to see if we get pressure. Should there be pressure with just cranking the engine or does it not register until after the engine starts? Thanks.
Jeff
Jeff,
Hi. All the crud builds up in the fittings, so I would advise to take them out now and clean them out thoroughly before starting up the engine if they weren't already cleaned out when you had them apart. The crud is packed so tight in some of them, that I've had to use a trans pick and BrakeKlean to get it all out. From what you're telling me, I would get everything spotless before you start it up and encounter problems. The crud isn't going to go away on its own…..And yes, you should have pressure on the gauge when spinning the pump even when stationary. Keep us posted. Good Luck!
Bob
After cleaning out the fittings and lines in the engine valley, I started the engine and got about 25 lbs of oil pressure at idle and about thirty at 1000-1500 RPM. I think that is the right amount. There is a bit of lifter noise though. It seems like it's coming from the right side of the engine. I attached link to a video file. Is that normal for an engine from that era? Is there anything I can do to make it quiet? Thanks.
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=322451634614347&l=3091751305355219707
Jeff
Jeff,
The pressure is about right which is really a factor of the bearing condition (assuming the oil pump is working properly), not the lifter blocks. That seems a little loud, but it's kinda' hard to tell from the video without being there……Is it only One side? Is is only ONE of the lifter blocks? The front blocks are fed from one "Y" feed and the rear blocks from another. Did you also clean out the fittings that feed the blocks? Did you disassemble each lifter, in each block, clean them out, "rebuild" them, and put them back in the same block/hole they came out of? If you have all of the above covered, did you check the distance between the valve stem tip to cam heel? It should be EXACTLY 3"……VERY critical in this engine. The lifters will not compensate much if this figure is off, which could be part of your problem. Is the cam new/ used? Are they the lifters that were in the engine? I'm sure you already know that you basically can't install a new cam on old lifters unless you want to wipe the cam out immediately. If it's a used cam was it checked before re-installing? You have a lot of variables going on here. We need all the info, but I would say yes, it doesn't sound right……
Bob
Check out this running motor @ 2.00 min.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hd_51uAY_28
I had the engine rebuilt by a local machine shop. I don't know if they used the original lifters or if they kept track of them and put them back in the same spot. I'm pretty sure the cam shaft is new. When this engine was new in 1947, I doubt they worried about where the original lifters were placed and they weren't "matched" with the cam. Why does it matter on a rebuild? Sorry for all the questions. I'm really new at this. How will I know if the new cam shaft was "wiped out"? Thanks.
Jeff
There is no restrictor in the oil feed line to the lifters. The fitting pictured previously is typically used for the feed to the oil filter to restrict the flow in a bypass system. See the picture on page 62, Fig. 40 in the 1942 Shop Manual for the complete oil system.
Jeff,
If they used a new or "reground" cam, either the mushrooms needed to be replaced with new ones or they needed to be resurfaced to take out the profile worn into them from the old camshaft. Who broke the camshaft/engine in? The first 15 minutes of run time should have been done with either a straight weight 30 oil , break-in oil, etc. along with some ZDDP additive so the metal-to-metal contact in the engine doesn't destroy itself. I don't want to get heavily into this, but there are specific guidelines when breaking in a flat-tappet motor. Was the engine already assembled with camshaft assembly lube on the cam and lifter bases and other crucial areas? You never answered the question regarding the valve stem tip to cam heel clearance which is crucial to this engine. Did the machine shop have flathead experience or some kind of spec sheet for the 346 to go by? If they changed the valves, guides, etc. , they needed to establish that 3" space when doing the valve job. All the stems need to be custom fit against the cam heel lobes and usually ground to arrive at the 3" benchmark. It's a tedious job, but did they do it? If you had a new cam, you needed to either follow the cam manufacturer's specific break-in instructions, or use some general guidelines which are available all over the net, which involve specific rpm's, oil/ additives, timing, etc. This is not a Chevy 350………Just trying to help you out with this. Bob
Brad,
I've taken 3 of these 346 motors down in the past 2 years ('46,'47', and '48) and all three of them had NO filter, but had the restrictor or "metering" fitting in the block for the supply line to the lifter valley. Maybe they put some in, and/or left some out? Any other opinions/ fact on this? Now, I'm curious…..
Bob
Thanks, Bob. I appreciate your patience.
I gave the military manual (which I found online) and the regular shop manual to the rebuild shop when they were working on my engine. I don't know if they set the distance to exactly 3". I filled the crankcase with Lucas SAE 20 break-in oil before starting. Then I more-or-less followed the break-in instructions from Walt's Workbench on breaking in a rebuilt Cadillac flathead. http://www.rmrclc.com/waltsWorkBench.html
Jeff
That's all good and a step in the right direction so far! Find out from the machine shop how they handled the cam/ lifter situation and the clearance from cam heel to valve stem tip of 3". If that's all good, you're going to be doing some detective work! Keep us posted so we can try and help you out on this.
Bob
I found the old lifters in a box I got back from the engine rebuilder so I guess they installed new lifters. I'm assuming the rebuilder re-assembled the engine using the correct specs, but I'll give him a call to ask.
Jeff, Good deal…..The 3" spec is important and might be the culprit of the noisy valve train. Did you get the lifters and the mushrooms tappets back, or just the lifters?
Bob
To answer your question about why everything needs to either be new, or matched. Think of it as like sanding a piece of wood. Run the sandpaper in one direction only and then it matches. Turn the piece of wood 90 degrees and the sandpaper will really eat into the wood. Everything wears and matches itself to where ever it is. You can't see it, or even feel it, but everything matches in the wear pattern in which it lives. Up/Down, side to side. they match the cam or wherever it rides,etc. If you swap them, then they have to re-match themselves. And then the hole/valley/lobe in which the mismatched item is in, then wears itself again. So, everything has to re-wear itself so that now your cam has a wear pattern from the first lifter, and then now the second,etc.
If you go new to new, then it will wear and match itself. If not, then go old to old so that it doesn't have to change much.
Best of luck. I am almost in the same boat as you. The engine for my 70 it in the shop now and I hope to be installing it soon.
Jeff
I talked with the shop that rebuilt the engine and they assured me that the tolerances were correct when it was rebuilt. I used Lucas SAE 20 break-in oil when starting the engine for the first time and when I drained it after maybe 45 minutes of running, it appeared to me there was more metal in the oil than I would have expected. Is there anywhere I can send a sample of the oil to have it analyzed to confirm my suspicion? Except for the lifter ticking, however, the engine seems to run very smoothly at idle speed of about 400 RPM. If there were anything terribly wrong, I wouldn't expect it to be so smooth. Is lifter ticking just annoying or is it damaging to the engine? Thanks for the advice. I included a link to a video of the engine idling at ~375 RPM. You can hear the lifter tick more on the right side of the engine.
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=323194541206723&l=5503367588790609161
Jeff Trahan
Jeff,
Hi. Can you shoot a pic of the oil that was drained. Fine Gold flake mixed with the oil? Silver Flake? Fine or coarse?
Bobby
Unfortunately, I disposed of the oil. I would say it was fine silver flake, just from memory. I'm hoping it was just leftover metal from the rebuild.
What do you think from looking at the video? Is lifter tick bad for the engine?
I changed the oil again after running the engine for longer and there are no more metal shavings. I'm hoping they were just left over from the engine machining and came out with the first oil change. Unfortunately, the lifters are still ticking when the engine warms up, but not ticking much when the engine is cold. Does lifter tick hurt the engine or is it just annoying? Thanks.
Jeff
I'm still trying to figure out the problem of the noisy lifters. The manual says "Improper Oil Pressure" causes the lifters to be noisy when the oil is hot, which is exactly my problem. The lifters don't tick at all for several minutes after the engine is started. That makes me think the lifters are getting enough oil at start-up but somehow not getting enough oil when it warms up. The oil pressure gauge reads 25-30 psi even when hot. How can there be enough oil pressure at the valley when the engine is cold but not when it is hot? It doesn't seem like there could be a blockage or else the lifters would tick all the time, not just when hot.
These two videos show the difference between noise when cold and noise when hot. The first is about 3 1/2 minutes with no lifter noise. The second is about 15 minutes.
https://youtu.be/iTCwdi3KmYM
https://youtu.be/d62mjh0P4dY
Let me know what you think. Thanks.
Jeff T
I will follow this thread with interest. You can read my thread 472 with a tick.
I have the same exact problem......... I know our engines are different but the problem is the same.
My low pressure and tick start after about 20 miles of driving....... When it is good and hot, not just warm.
May I suggest you check your pressure when the oil is very hot.
Jeff
Jeff,
Hey, Welcome back! Thought your problems would've been solved by now. I'll throw the following out there.....Lifter blocks worn/too much clearance, Lifters NG/pumping down, Possible bad rod bearing. When it's running, pull a plug wire at a time to see if the ticking goes away. If it does, it's a possible rod bearing. If it's the Lifters, the sound won't change when you take that cylinder out of the picture. I still hope that you have the exact 3" clearance that is specified for the lifters to operate properly. Maybe try flushing the oil and adding a way thicker oil just to see if the ticking goes away slightly after warm-up. If it does, you know you have some excessive clearances going on. Is the oil temp and water temp normal when the ticking starts? Maybe the next thing in order is to open up the Valley covers and have a look.
Bobby
I took the front valley cover off and disconnected the tee fitting. Oil flows freely (squirts out a few inches) when cranked. With the tee fitting attached and the engine running, there really doesn't seem to be much oil in that area when either hot or cold. Is that the way it is supposed to be or should I be seeing steady oil flow around the lifters?
Theres a steady rate the lifters have to 'Leak down' if you could see the oil flowing the lifters would not be working. had an engine recently with this problem and t2 of the lifters were frozen.
Quote from: Jeff Trahan on August 23, 2016, 01:44:24 PM
I took the front valley cover off and disconnected the tee fitting. Oil flows freely (squirts out a few inches) when cranked. With the tee fitting attached and the engine running, there really doesn't seem to be much oil in that area when either hot or cold. Is that the way it is supposed to be or should I be seeing steady oil flow around the lifters?
Jeff
Hi. OK with flow through the lines..Fine. How about the brass 90 degree fittings? Those are usually the culprits and caked up. Before you button it up, unscrew them while you have the lines already off. They don't usually clog up in the female flare side, they clog up closer to the male threaded NPT fitting that goes into the block/blocks because the opening is slightly restricted. Hard to see when they're threaded in if they're clogged.
Bobby
Thanks for the advice. The tee lines appear to be clear. The oil spurted out a few inches when the tee was removed and the engine was cranked and when I connected the tee feed but left the two downstream connections on the tee loose, oil was plentiful at those points too. The only thing I haven't checked yet is clogged passages inside the lifter blocks. I don't relish removing them, but it appears I will have to. The funny thing is the engine is really quiet when cold and the lifter ticks only show up when the oil is hot.
Jeff T.
Jeff,
Are they "new" lifters or did you rebuild those lifters, take them apart, and at least clean them? Was it a new cam? If you're taking the blocks out, now's the time to check your 3" clearance off the heel of the cam. Do you have a 3" standard or a snap gauge you could set to 3"?
Bobby
Jeff: As Bobby has asked- are these the old lifters and if so did they take each apart for cleaning? The tolerance between the plunger with spring and the plunger cylinder is probably the closest tolerance you will find in your engine. This close tolerance is necessary to maintain a certain leak down rate of oil that is trapped in the plunger cylinder. The tolerance between the plunger and the plunger cylinder wall establishes the rate of leak down or bleed off. Too much tolerance causes oil to escape to fast causing valves to open or close too late. Also, too much tolerance allows to fast a bleed off and now you have valve lash. Valve lash is the clearance between mechanical parts in the valve train. The hydraulic lifters maintain a zero lash in the valve train so we have a quite engine. So if you have a lifter with too high of a leak down then you have too much lash so you hear a click, click and a noisy engine.
Now when the engine is cold the viscosity of the oil is thicker which allows slower leak down of oil trapped in the plunger and you have a quite engine. As the engine gets hotter, oil gets thinner which could lead to too much leak down if the tolerance of the lifter is out of limits, then valve lash and click, click. So if you do take old lifters apart for cleaning don`t mix up the plungers with spring and plunger cylinders. As I understand in the manufacturing of the lifters, each plunger with spring is fitted with the plunger cylinder for the correct tolerance between the two pieces and you should always keep the same two pieces together otherwise the correct bleed down rate might not be maintained. Jeff this might be the reason for the tick, tick noise in your engine. Bill
I had the engine rebuilt by a local shop and they installed new lifters from Terrill. The shop says they followed the directions (I gave them a copy of the military manual and the shop manual) on the 3" spec. Would new lifters have to break-in a little before they stop ticking? My next step is to try some Valvoline 20W-50 Racing Oil to see if that makes a difference.
By the way, to circle back on an earlier topic in this thread, there is a "restrictor" in the oil line in my engine block. I have a spare engine, and it also had the restrictor but it looks like it was deliberately broken off to make the hole larger. I can't think of any way it could have broken on its own.
Quote from: Jeff Trahan on August 24, 2016, 08:42:43 PM
By the way, to circle back on an earlier topic in this thread, there is a "restrictor" in the oil line in my engine block. I have a spare engine, and it also had the restrictor but it looks like it was deliberately broken off to make the hole larger. I can't think of any way it could have broken on its own.
Jeff,
Hi. My lifters are quiet with the restrictor. Before you pull the blocks out, measure your full lift on each valve with a dial gauge, while turning over by hand. Do a comparison and see if it varies. You said new lifters, but is it a new cam, with new followers on the lifter bases?
Bobby
Jeff,
If the camshaft is worn or reground and or the mushroom cam followers have been reground then the 3" clearance Bobby has mentioned may not be totally accurate. The 37/38 Cadillac service manual states that the clearance be measured between the valve stem and a completely collapsed lifter. The proper clearance is specified to be between 0.030" and 0.070". I use a spare hydraulic lifter with the return spring removed to help make the process a little easier. It's still a fairly tedious process but it guarantees that any variations in the individual cam lobes and cam followers are accounted for.
However, your problem may be a combination of parts made in China and insufficient oil viscosity. It's not clear to me that clearance between the lifter body and piston on the new lifters that are available today always meets the tolerance of the original parts. You might try 20 W50 oil and see what happens. An engine I have with the new lifters in it certainly quieted down when I switched oil.
Tom Beaver
The camshaft is new and the entire lifter assemblies are all new (all from Terrill Machine). The shop said the valves were fine. I guess they probably just re-ground the valves and seats.
And I assume it was broken in properly with break-in oil, for the correct amount of time, and RPM? Go back to my previous post and before you take the lifter blocks out (if that's your next move), do a height check on the lift of every valve off it's seat with a dial gauge and compare. It won't be up to spec because the lifters have no oil to pump up/down, but they should all be consistent. That's what you need to find out. It's just for comparison. Like doing a compression check, it will all be consistent due to the circumstances of the temperature, equipment, etc. This will tell you if the culprit is in the mix there somewhere lurking and masquerading as a bad lobe, wiped lobe, bad lifter, loose valve guide, etc. If that doesn't work, start from scratch with the lifter blocks out, and please double check the 3" clearance. That would be your tapping noise right there in front of you. If you can't find anything once you get all the way down to the lifter blocks being out, you might have to remove the valve springs to see if you have excessive clearance in the guides and possible loose valves. Are you sure they put the springs back in with the correct upper seats against the block? We will help you figure it out. Lots of knowledgeable Flathead guys here.
Bobby
Yes, I used Lucas SAE20 break-in oil (with zinc) and followed the instructions on Walt's Work Bench for breaking in a Cadillac flathead. Thanks for all the advice. I'll post again when I've made some progress.
I changed the oil to Valvoline 20W-50 racing oil and the lifter tick stayed the same. So I guess I need to take the lifter blocks out and check for any blocked passages and check the 3" measurement. The question now is this: is the lifter noise harmful to the engine or just annoying? Should I not start/drive the car until I get time to disassemble the lifter blocks?
Jeff T.
Its going to depend on which part is not getting oil if that is indeed the problem. If its the plunger not getting oil or is just stuck that will be just like driving with a noisy tappet but if the lifter body is not getting its oil from the lifter block that could be more series.
Does the fact that it's quiet when cold but noisy when warm (tick starts after about 15 minutes of idling) provide a clue of what part is not getting oil?
Not really to me because I was asked to look at a fellow club members car about 4 months ago with exactly the same symptoms. Nice and quite when cold but would tick its head off as soon as it warmed up. I assumed worn lifters that would leak worse when the oil warmed and got thin but the problem was just one plunger frozen solid. A new set cured it instantly but I don't know why it gave those symptoms.
Quote from: Steve Passmore on September 03, 2016, 07:00:41 PM
Not really to me because I was asked to look at a fellow club members car about 4 months ago with exactly the same symptoms. Nice and quite when cold but would tick its head off as soon as it warmed up. I assumed worn lifters that would leak worse when the oil warmed and got thin but the problem was just one plunger frozen solid. A new set cured it instantly but I don't know why it gave those symptoms.
Steve,
I think that even the slightest valve train noise sounds horrible in a Flathead because it gets amplified and not dampened by the proximity of the metal valley covers. All it takes is one bad apple.....
Bobby
Dead right there Bobby ;)