Water pump identification

[Cadman-iac]

I have a 1464408 on my '55.  The  plugged tapped hole is for the transmission cooler/heater line on cars equipped with the transmission cooler/heater.  Cadillac part numbers starting with 146 were created around 1953 for use on '54 cars.  Most of '58 Brougham has 146 part numbers, but the majority on that car are carry over '57 Brougham parts.

Note:  the plugged tapped hole is for the heater flow inlet on the ranco valve.

David,
I know it can't be seen in the picture because of the angle, but what looks like a plug is actually a reducer bushing.
So I guess the pumps 4-6 design could be for all 3 years, 54, 55, and 56 and be correct. If you are looking for one for originality for a 56, then the one with the "C56" on it is the one you'd want I guess.
Pumps 4 and 6 could work for all 3 years, and pump 6 would work for a 75 or 86 series as well if I'm getting all this right.

Anyone with a '49 through '53, can you tell me what style of pump you have and where the heater hoses connect to it?
I don't know if they would have had both hoses connect just below the thermostat and run under the manifold like my pumps 1-3, or if one hose connects under the thermostat and one just above the lower radiator hose connection like my pump number 4-6.

And anyone with a '58 through '62, could you tell me where your heater hoses connect to the pump and how they are routed?

My pump 7 is a real oddball because it has only one heater port, the return port above the lower radiator hose. What year Cadillac used just one port on the pump, and where did the supply for the heater come from?

 Anyone who happens to have a series 75 or 86 from '49 to '62 specifically, what connects to the two ports on the upper water passage of the water pump?

I suppose that bottom line, all these pumps would work for just about every Cadillac from '49 to '62, but to be correct to a specific year, I'd like to know how you can tell one from another.
I'm not sure what I'm going to do with these at the moment, but if I decide I don't need them, I'd like to know what to tell someone who is looking if I've got the correct one for whatever year they are wanting it for, if that makes sense.

My thanks to everyone who has commented so far, and in advance for anyone who may respond to this.

Rick

[Cadman-iac]

  David, I guess I was typing when you posted your last 2 posts. That's some good information.
Especially the trans cooler supply port on the right rear side of the engine block.
I have to crawl under my 56 parts car and look at the block for that port because it has a trans cooler on it.
The engine and transmission I got with the Coupe also has a cooler under the front of the transmission, but the engine is a 62, I'm not sure what year the transmission is. I thought it was the original 56, but I can't tell since it doesn't have any tags on it anywhere.

How many years did they put that port on the block for a cooler?

Just noticed that the picture of your pump is a 57. Thanks, I've never seen one before.

Thank you again for your help.
  Rick

.Edit:  the transmission is a 56,it matches the 56 parts car exactly.

[Cadman-iac]

  David,
 I just noticed that your 57 pump has that heater return passage visible on the front of the pump, like the ones I numbered 1-3.
 If you go at this logically, wouldn't that be a design change that began with the 57 models, since we know that the 56's did not have that passage?
 And that being said, we can say that the pumps 1-3 would probably be for '58 and newer?

 And, if that makes sense, then my pump number 7, since it doesn't have that front passage either, but would not work for a 54-56, it must be from something between 49 and 53, right?
 Just speculating, but it does make sense to me. What do you think?
 Anyone else?

 Thanks, Rick

[Cadman-iac]

 David,
 Thanks for the information on the block outlet on the right side. I crawled under the 56 parts car and sure enough, it has a heater nipple sticking out just above the starter.
 The trans cooler is long gone but the hoses are still there.
 Here's a picture of it.

[Lexi]

54-56 3 groove pulley was a stamped steel version. 
The 4 groove pulley looks just like the cast one and it came out in '57 w/AC. One year only.
The one shown is 58 to 64 and some special later versions.  I will post some images later with all the data.

Hello David. Are you sure the triple groove pulley (Tallboy) is stamped steel and not cast? I ask as there are a lot of disimilarities between both pulleys to question this. Clay/Lexi

[Cadman-iac]

Clay,
These are the spacers that were between the 55 radiator and the core support. They are 1" outside diameter and 5 of them are 1 7/8" long, the 6th one is 1 7/16" with a 5/16" thick additional piece. Not sure why one was 2 piece.

[David King (kz78hy)]

Lexi,

There is only 1 A/C pulley (3 groove) listed for 54-56 in the MPL. 
In 57, A/C cars got the 4 belt pulley (compressor had dual belts from previous years).  In 58, A/C got one drive belt and remained that way going forward.  Those were the 3 belt version and those I've seen on my own cars are stamped.  I've included shots from the 60 Eldorado Brougham pump I had to rebuild and that was carry over standard Cadillac Eldorado engine.

The pump casting is the same as the other later versions in this thread.

The cast 3 groove pulley looks like the 4 groove version, but I can't say where it is used.

[Cadman-iac]

Hello David. Are you sure the triple groove pulley (Tallboy) is stamped steel and not cast? I ask as there are a lot of disimilarities between both pulleys to question this. Clay/Lexi

 Clay, David,
 I think you are both referring to two different pulleys. I believe David was referring to the cast crank pulley with 4 grooves on a 57, and Clay I think you are referring to the cast water pump pulley with 3 grooves on a 56.
 
 The 3 groove stamped steel crankshaft pulley I have is what I had asked about because I also have a 3 groove cast crank pulley, and I don't know which one is the correct one for a 56.

 Rick

[Lexi]

I think we were referring to two different pulleys Rick. Clay/Lexi

[Cadman-iac]

Well now I'm Kornfused again. I just went out and pulled the crank pulley off of my 56 parts car with factory A/C, and compared it with the "tallboy" water pump pulley and the grooves are different widths.
Check this out.

Here's the original 56 crank pulley with A/C.




And here's the cast pulley I pulled from a 56 parts car a friend had.




And here are the two side by side. Notice that the grooves are no where near even.


And here's the cast crank pulley and the "tallboy" water pump pulley. They line up perfectly.


Now here's the stamped original 56 pulley and the stamped 55 water pump pulley. It's only a 2 groove, but you can see it lines up just fine.


The cast pulleys do line up evenly with each other.


So my question at this point is, what years use the cast pulleys?  It's not the 56.

  Rick

[Cadman-iac]

I "think" the cast pulleys are from a 62, because the water pump pulley came with the 62 engine that was supposed to be the original engine from my 56 Coupe Deville.
Since the water pump is the later version, it stands to reason that the pulley may be as well. But I'm still just speculating.
Can someone with a 62 tell me if your pulleys are cast or stamped so I can correctly label these?
My thanks in advance for any assistance you can provide.

Rick

[Lexi]

Cadman-iac want me to pull my spare set out of the AC pulley with the crank pulley, and compare for you? Think they are an OEM matched set. Can't do right away, but can do if you want. I also have learned a new word over these last couple of days, "kornfused". Will come in handy for me just about every day. Lately more than ever. Clay/Lexi

[Cadman-iac]

Cadman-iac want me to pull my spare set out of the AC pulley with the crank pulley, and compare for you? Think they are an OEM matched set. Can't do right away, but can do if you want. I also have learned a new word over these last couple of days, "kornfused". Will come in handy for me just about every day. Lately more than ever. Clay/Lexi

  If you don't mind going to the trouble, then yes, that would be very helpful.
 It's been an uphill climb trying to figure out which parts are original to a 56. Pulling parts off a 56 apparently doesn't mean that you'll be getting 56 parts.
 The guy I got my Coupe from swore he had the original engine for it, and for  probably 20 years I thought it was. That is until I finally found out about this forum and learned a few things.
 And a good friend of mine took me to one of his 56 parts cars when I asked him about a crank pulley for an A/C car. He swore it had the original engine in it too, and maybe it was, but the pulley off it was that cast one.
 So yes, I'm seriously Kornfused!! Lol!!
 Thanks for your help Clay, I really appreciate your input.

 Rick
 

[Roger Zimmermann]

How many years did they put that port on the block for a cooler?

Rick, 1957 cars had the transmission cooler like the '56 ones, but at a different location than 1956. The nipple on the block was like '56. From 1958 on, the transmission cooler was into the radiator; I suppose the nipple was gone. It could be that 1958 Brougham still had the nipple, but anyway Brougham cars are almost not relevant for most people.

[Cadman-iac]

Rick, 1957 cars had the transmission cooler like the '56 ones, but at a different location than 1956. The nipple on the block was like '56. From 1958 on, the transmission cooler was into the radiator; I suppose the nipple was gone. It could be that 1958 Brougham still had the nipple, but anyway Brougham cars are almost not relevant for most people.

 Hey Roger,
 Thanks for your help on this. I had wondered when the transmission cooler was relocated to the radiator.
 I know that the Hydramatic was redesigned for the 56, so it used an external cooler, but did they ever use a transmission cooler on anything prior to the 56?
 I checked my 55 and it didn't have one, but from the information given in this thread, a cooler was "optional" for 56, so would that also be the case for prior years as well?
 
 Rick

[Cadman-iac]

  So here's what I've figured out about these water pumps so far from the input I've received. This is not chiseled in stone, as no one can be absolutely certain that what is on their Cadillac is 100% original, and if there is anyone out there that can say that for sure, they haven't yet responded here.

I reserve the right to be wrong, since there's been a limited response to my question, but I think I'm close.

So this pump design is what I believe came on the early 331 engines from 1949 to 1953. It has only one threaded hole for a heater hose, located just above the lower radiator hose connection. This is the heater return port. The heater supply port would probably be located on the block or on one of the heads, but this hasn't been verified since no one with one of these years of Cadillac has responded yet, so I'm basing this on what I have so far.
As you can see, there are no additional ports in the upper water passage or under the thermostat.




This particular pump is currently on my 56 parts car. It has two additional ports on the upper water passage in addition to the one above the lower radiator hose connection. There are no other ports, so I believe this one came from a 49-53 series 75 or 86. This pump looks like it was adapted to this car using the two top ports and only works because this engine has the additional water port at the rear of the block that supplies the transmission cooler. (See 3rd picture)
If the pump in the picture above were tried on this car it would not work, it is at least 1 port short.

[Cadman-iac]

 This is the pump design used for the 54-56 Cadillacs.
 This one also has the heater return port above the lower radiator hose connection, but it also has the heater supply port in the upper water passage below the thermostat. It points to the right and slightly rearward.




 There are also two additional ports on some of these pumps, which has been mentioned are for the series 75 cars and the series 86 commercial chassis vehicles.
 Here's a picture of these.

[Cadman-iac]

  This pump design is for a 1957 only. This year is the only one that has the lower hose on the right side.
The heater return port is located on the left side of the pump on the front.
The heater supply port is located on the rear of the pump. I will have to ask David for a picture of the rear of his pump to verify where the heater supply hose port is, but I believe it's in the upper water passage on the left side.
***This picture is courtesy of David King.*** My thanks to David for his response to this question.


Below is a rear view of a 57 pump.
 ***Photo courtesy of Caddyholic.***
This is truly a community effort to sort out these pumps.
So in this picture you can see it has been redesigned for this year. It has two heater return ports, one on the front as seen in the first picture, and the second one below the thermostat on the right side that flows into the additional water passage on the front of the pump, also visible in the first picture.
The heater supply port is located just below the thermostat as well but it is connected to the upper water passage and points to the left.
There is a "T" fitting  with another elbow for a hose that aims to be rear under the intake manifold, and another pipe that extends out to the left of the pump  between the head and block ports, and comes out just above the front return port.
From what I've been able to determine is that the heater is supplied by the two front ports and the transmission cooler is supplied by the two rear ports.


My sincerest thanks to David King and Caddyholic for supplying these pictures without which this post could not have happened.

Rick

[Cadman-iac]

 I think I need more information to continue this. I'm not positive about the 58-62 pumps simply because I'm not sure how they routed the heater hoses and in particular where they connected to the pumps.
 I have a 56, a 57, and a 58 supplement manual, but I'm missing the 59, 61 and 62 manuals. I have a 60 supplement, and the 63 and 64 manuals, but these don't help. The 63 was redesigned and isn't relevant here.
 The 58 supplement says that the hoses are the same as the 57.

 What I need is the hose routing for 1959, 1960, 1961, and 1962.
 Can anyone with these particular manuals please post a picture of how Cadillac ran the heater hoses?
 
 I'm trying to set up a reference post for anyone trying to figure out what pump they may have or which one they need to find. But just speculation on my part can and probably would be incorrect, so before I steer someone in the wrong direction, please help me sort this out.
 My thanks in advance for any help you can give.

 Rick

[Lexi]

If you don't mind going to the trouble, then yes, that would be very helpful.
 It's been an uphill climb trying to figure out which parts are original to a 56. Pulling parts off a 56 apparently doesn't mean that you'll be getting 56 parts.
 The guy I got my Coupe from swore he had the original engine for it, and for  probably 20 years I thought it was. That is until I finally found out about this forum and learned a few things.
 And a good friend of mine took me to one of his 56 parts cars when I asked him about a crank pulley for an A/C car. He swore it had the original engine in it too, and maybe it was, but the pulley off it was that cast one.
 So yes, I'm seriously Kornfused!! Lol!!
 Thanks for your help Clay, I really appreciate your input.

 Rick
 

Rick here is a comparison shot of a cast 1956 Tallboy next to it's 1956 cast crank pulley, as requested. All belt grooves match up perfectly. I have yet another set and compared those and they were also a match and also agree with what is on my car. These were installed on AC equipped cars. The non-AC cars used stamped steel pulleys in both instances. Clay/Lexi