Cadillac Advertising on The Academy Awards

[Big Apple Caddy]

When I was a kid in the 1960's and attending high school in the 1970's it was a big deal to own a Cadillac, now not so much.  Today owning a MB is bigger deal than Cadillac.

I’d have to disagree there.  Although both have gone down market (too much so IMO) in recent times, I think owning a Mercedes-Benz had long been a "bigger deal" than owning a Cadillac.  Mercedes-Benz in the past were usually smaller than typical Cadillacs but have long carried higher to much price tags and more prestige.

In many ways I think Cadillac is actually more competitive with MB today than in times past when the brands were playing in different price and size categories.  In the past, even top end Cadillacs were traditionally less than Mercedes-Benzes and much less than the "big" Mercedes-Benzes.  Today, a fully loaded CT6 comes within just $5,000 or so of the base price of an S550.   A CTS-V (as well as the Escalade) can be thousands more than an S550.   At the low end, the 4-door Mercedes-Benz CLA250 and Cadillac ATS are around the same size yet the Cadillac starts over $2,000 higher.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Although very pricey and excellently built, most Mercedes products were rather spartan compared to what the American public expected in a luxury car from the '50s to the '70s.  It was not until the 1980s, roughly, that Mercedes began equipping their cars anywhere near as well as a fully loaded Cadillac, which it finally realized it had to do if it was to compete in the American luxury car market.

Also bear in mind, relatively low import quantities and/or limited distribution network helped bolster MB prices. Produced and offered in the same quantities as Cadillac, they would never have commanded the selling prices they did.

In any case, I'm not sure whether, say a 1976 450SL would have been considered as glamorous as a 1976 Eldorado convertible with the majority of the American public, as MB always appealed to a more specialized crowd.

[Big Apple Caddy]

Different cars appeal to different people for sure but I feel that Mercedes had long been "bigger deals", as Scot put it, than the more common and traditionally lower to much lower priced Cadillacs.  Although the cars were generally more spartan than Cadillacs, I'd still say Mercedes-Benz ownership was more "special" or "glamorous" than Cadillac ownership in part because of the above mentioned price differences.

Today, I find Mercedes and Cadillacs more on par with each other as pricing and other attributes (like size) have become more similar.  I actually feel that Mercedes-Benz ownership these days is less of a "bigger deal" over Cadillac than it used to be.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Speaking for myself, I would take a 1976 Fleetwood Brougham d'Elegance, all day, any day over any Mercedes of the same model year. For looks, ride, comfort, and room it had a 450 SEL beat in spades, hands down IMO. Yes the Mercedes handles better, stops quicker and so forth - which is great if you're in a hurry all the time. I'll just leave a little earlier. 

I wonder what a new 1976 Cadillac sold for in Germany... probably more than a Mercedes I suspect, and it was probably more prestigious as well.

In any case, I've never been particularly impressed with most European cars, especially at their price. 

[WTL]

Well, again we are discussing maybe 2 different things; profitability (and volume of sales) and prestige.  I don't think they necessarily track. 

We have really focused on Mercedes, but for Cadillac, not much talk has been directed at Buick.  What is Buick for?  Where does it fit?  GMC Yukon vs Escalade?  What does that do to Cadillac?  I think the stablemates hurt a lot, as they are very nice cars/suvs.  I believe the CT6 is great, as things go, but is it worth the markup when people see it and think about Cadillac how they used to think about Buick? 

Really, I keep coming back to the idea that a choice must be made.  If Cadillac wants to remain synonymous with the unltimate luxury, as the word continues to mean to this day, then they need to cut back on volume, models, and increase prices and panache.  They can't be modest. 

I was behind an early 2000s Cadillac yesterday, a boat.  Might have been the last Deville.  It obviously had Cadillac dimensions.  But it was just a dead design.  Nothing interesting.  We have slayed the 80s in this thread, but at least the 1980-85 Seville did something.  People either loved it or hated it (I loved it), but it was out there on a limb.  As others are noting, that being out there on a limb went away in the 80s.  The 90s cars had some ok lines, but they didn't have panache.  And so, we can make fun of the land yachts and say they didn't sell, but maybe all we established conclusively is that bland land yachts dont sell. 

[Scot Minesinger]

I grew up in Cleveland, OH area, born in 1960.  Cleveland was a car town and supplied automotive components to Detroit.  No way was MB in a league equal to Cadillac in the 1970's.  The successful people in town owned Cadillacs or Lincolns in the late 1970's.  Only one person I knew owned a 1972 MB280, and it was disgraced by my 1968 Thunderbird w/429 V-8.  I agree MB in the late 1970's introduced the restyled 450SEL (not sure of exact model, but the large V-8 sedan that had a new winning style), and it was not until the early 1980's where that really caught on.

There is something to be said for the definition of success.  Is it a good product that may not sell well for lack of marketing or otherwise (Cadillac now), or is it large profits on poor product(Cadillac 1980's), or is it nice profit on good products (1930's thru 1970')?  I would consider product for purposes of this club and discussion as success, not profit only, such as the 1980's.  I think we all would like to see Cadillac earn a nice fair profit on good product.

Anyway, I think Cadillac is on the right track now more than they were the last 35 years to improvement. 

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Land yachts or not, DeVille and DTS have always sold consistently well for me as used cars, while newer generation  STS and SRX models were slugs. Could barely get a customer to look at one. I'll probably never touch either again. Only the Seville SLS/STS style produced until 1987 and the '92 - '02 Eldorado sold comparably to DeVille/DTS.

Last year I sold a 2010 DTS Premium with 806 miles that was as new. Had zero difficulty selling that car for a bit shy of $30K and I could have sold 10 more if I had them to offer. Same for a 2008 DTS I sold last month with 42,000 miles that was almost as nice which sold just as easily as the 2010.

So you can see why I do not buy into this nonsense that full size Cadillac sedans do not sell. In my experience it is exactly the kind of Cadillac that absolutely does sell.

[Big Apple Caddy]

I wonder what a new 1976 Cadillac sold for in Germany... probably more than a Mercedes I suspect, and it was probably more prestigious as well. 

Unlikely.  I'm not sure when Cadillac entered the German market and with what models but given the wide price differences between Cadillac and MB here in the past, I think the Mercedes would've/could've still been a good bit pricier than a Cadillac.  In Germany, like here, Mercedes could get quite pricey and sometimes more than here due to things like VAT.

Right now, Cadillacs in Germany are actually around the same price (converted to USD) as they are here in the states until you add that nasty VAT.

In any case, I've never been particularly impressed with most European cars, especially at their price.

Must be why you hang out here rather than one of the Mercedes-Benz or other European car forums!

So you can see why I do not buy into this nonsense that full size Cadillac sedans do not sell. In my experience it is exactly the kind of Cadillac that absolutely does sell.

Why is it nonsense?  New full size Cadillac sedans don't sell nearly as well as they used as reflected in rapidly declining sales of DeVille (2000 to 2005), DTS (2006 to 2011) and XTS (2013 to present) plus relatively tepid CT6 sales.

[Big Apple Caddy]

What is Buick for?

I think a big reason Buick is still around is because it’s so darn popular in China and GM is afraid that dropping the brand here might negatively impact Chinese sales where 80% of Buicks are sold and where Cadillac is seeing serious growth.  Chevrolet too.  Here in the U.S., Buick is even further below its 1980s sales peak than Cadillac is below its peak.

And so, we can make fun of the land yachts and say they didn't sell, but maybe all we established conclusively is that bland land yachts dont sell.

That notable declines in large sedan sales, and NOT just @ Cadillac, and notable increase in crossover and SUV sales would suggest that there's a lot more to this than some sort of potential "blandness" issue with sedans.   New vehicle consumers today just don't want large sedan like they used to.  I hope that changes but it's where we are now.

[Walter Youshock]

Picking on buick.  Funny since after 4 rwd Cadillacs, I got a '98 lesabre which was just about the best car I've ever owned.  Now I have a lucerne which is about the worst.  But why did I go Buick--a poor experience with a fwd Cadillac and I didn't want a Northstar.

Last funeral home I worked for had a fleet of 7 cadillacs.  His and his wife's daily drivers--BUICKS.  And he's holding off updating the fleet until Cadillac comes out with a car a dignified hearse can be made from...

Cadillac threw the professional car market away. 

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Unlikely.  I'm not sure when Cadillac entered the German market and with what models but given the wide price differences between Cadillac and MB here in the past, I think the Mercedes would've/could've still been a good bit pricier than a Cadillac.

I'll leave that for your redoubtable research skills to answer which are far beyond mine.

In any case, I wouldn't bet against it just yet. 

Must be why you hang out here rather than one of the Mercedes-Benz or other European car forums!

Indeed. 

Why is it nonsense?  New full size Cadillac sedans don't sell nearly as well as they used as reflected in rapidly declining sales of DeVille (2000 to 2005), DTS (2006 to 2011) and XTS (2013 to present) plus relatively tepid CT6 sales.

There are "on-paper" statistics and then there is the real world. After you've scratched and clawed your way through the jungle of the car business for a few decades, then come back and tell me which cars you have found profitable to handle and which are not.

[Big Apple Caddy]

There are "on-paper" statistics and then there is the real world. After you've scratched and clawed your way through the jungle of the car business for a few decades, then come back and tell me which cars you have found profitable to handle and which are not.

The "on paper" stats are based on the current real world reported new car sales and not just one or a few dealers' sales results but the collective results of all of the Cadillac dealers.  I'm sure some dealers and some regions of the country do or did better with DeVille, DTS, XTS and/or CT6 than others but it's the total new Cadillac market that has shown a significant drop in the large sedan business.  It's also not just Cadillac but large car sales are down for the overall industry.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

The "on paper" stats are based on the current real world reported new car sales and not just one or a few dealers' sales results but the collective results of all of the Cadillac dealers.  I'm sure some dealers and some regions of the country do or did better with DeVille, DTS, XTS and/or CT6 than others but it's the total new Cadillac market that has shown a significant drop in the large sedan business.  It's also not just Cadillac but large car sales are down for the overall industry.

Again, raw numbers alone can be misleading as they do not show what's going on behind the scenes. When salesmen steer customers into smaller models because they have been incentivized to do so because GM is worried about their CAFE numbers for instance. Take the 2010 I mentioned earlier: I was astonished when I saw the cash paying customer only got a $5,000 discount off of MSRP while knocking $10K+ off STS's was not uncommon.

Back in '85, GM was trying to kill off the Brougham. They didn't want to make it anymore - it was a thorn in their side to build a RWD which shared nothing with the smaller FWD siblings. In national advertising the Brougham was seldom shown or promoted while pushing the FWD cars all the way, which again harmed Cadillac's CAFE rating. CAFE ratings are in essence what forced Cadillac build a car - the Cimarron - a car undesired by the market. Same for the Volt.

By the way, did you note Van Nyssen's recent comments on the Escalade? That'll be the next on the chopping block! Insanity! 

I can go on but the point is simply you are looking at the picture far too simplistically and this supposed mantra that the days of big Detroit iron are over is what they WANT you to believe. The figures telling only half the story; the rest completely (and fraudulently) omitted by the press - both automotive and otherwise.

As for the regional theory of DTS - I don't buy that either: When I nationally advertise, DTS gets far more responses compared to almost none for smaller models (advertised identically) the picture is pretty clear that region has nothing to do with it. I cannot speak to the XTS because I haven't had any yet but anecdotally, I can report the DTS customers expressed dislike for that model instead preferring the DTS which is a far better looking car - at least to my eyes and have yet to find someone in disagreement.

In any case, if a strong preference for small/crossover Cadillac cars exists over large ones, I have seen little evidence of it in practice - the [skewed] sales figures notwithstanding. Firsthand experience in the trenches provides insight that data alone cannot.

[Big Apple Caddy]

Although Cadillac certainly did initially expect the Fleetwood Brougham/Brougham's days to have been numbered, it actually still got half-decent national publicity back then and was also one of the focus models when GMAC in conjunction with the various GM brands launched the "Smart Lease" program in 1988.  Unfortunately, its sales continued their decline.  When Cadillac invested in and brought out the new Fleetwood for 1993, its sales from the beginning were even lower than the averages seen for FWB/Brougham in that mid to late 1980s period.

Regarding 2010, both DTSs and STSs were seeing pretty good discounts thanks to dealer cash and a variety of potential rebates, depending on buyer qualifications, available.  Still, neither car did particularly well that year in sales with SRX (#1) and CTS (#2) far outselling them.  Even Escalade sales were around 45% higher than DTS.

Move forward to today.  Cadillac invested a lot, including marketing dollars, in the new CT6 and its sales are still quite low compared to similar sized Cadillacs of past decades despite the notable attention, rebates, discounts and dealer incentives.

I am actually a fan of the "large sedans" like DTS but have also watched many remain for sale for loooong periods of time and/or sell for quite cheap prices even w/low miles.   Regardless, what may or may not do well as several year old and cheap(er) used cars or in certain markets does not necessarily mean it was or is right for the new car buyer or new car market which continues to see declining large car sales.

We can continue this debate on and on but I firmly believe that the current environment on many levels just doesn’t speak well for the salability/desirability of large cars anything like it once did and Cadillac and other brands that once relied so heavily on and were so associated with that segment of the market had been beaten down.   I personally look forward to when large sedans can make a nice comeback but it may be a while, if it happens to any meaningful degree at all.

[Scot Minesinger]

Big Apple Caddy,

You can get statistics to favor any point of view.  Not sure how old you are.  In the mid to late 1970's in Cleveland, OH Cadillac was it, and MB was unknown.  Besides in OH the roads are flat and straight, and my 1968 Thunderbird with 429 V-8 (maybe I'm a better driver) blew the 1972 MB 280 is the weeds at the stop light.  I really thought the MB was terrible in the mid 1970's because it was not that fast and road unsmooth.  Maybe it was great at high speed, but at the time the speed limit was 55mph and most did not vary too much from it unlike now.

Contrast that to 1985 when Cadillac "had a good year", and MB was vastly superior.  To me 1985 was a bad year for Cadillac because their product was terrible and it set the stage for an unavoidable bleak future.  The future of automotive trends were not difficult to figure out back in the late 1970's and 1980's.  By 1982 it was very obvious any muscle car or convertible would be valuable (that is why they are around today).  Also it was obvious that the early 1980 Cadillacs were not good IMO and they would loose market share in the near future.   

Maybe in NY MB was appreciated in 1970's but not in OH.

Here is hoping Cadillac returns to former glory!  The new advertisement is a start.

[David King (kz78hy)]

I wanted to note that in this ad, at around the 40 second point, is the 1st public shot of Cadillac's new Super Cruise.  This is hands free driving.  The green bar on the steering wheel shows the system is engaged.

The CT6 is a very fine car.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMD5KXYJq_w

David

[Big Apple Caddy]

Maybe in NY MB was appreciated in 1970's but not in OH.

You can't assume that was the case for all of Ohio.  Just because you feel or felt that way, doesn’t mean everyone else in the state did.  I think there's become too much assumption here among us that personal feelings or experiences are or were the norm everywhere else.  Like Eric in a post above suggesting that large Cadillac sedans were still popular just because one particular deal on one particular DTS only showed a $5,000 discount when it was new, and supposedly low versus STSs.  I've seen numerous examples of new 2010 DTSs being discounted much higher than $5,000 back then and at levels comparable to STSs.  Sure, some new 2010 DTSs may have sold for only $5,000 off (maybe buyers took 0% financing instead of certain rebates?) but others were discounted more.  Sure, some people in Ohio may have "appreciated" Cadillacs over Mercedes in the early 1970s but everybody?

I guess my point in all of this is to simply explain why I tend to use and prefer broader "statistics" and information to support comments rather than rely too much on personal "on off" situations or examples.  Well, I think we've thoroughly gone off the original topic of this thread.

Here is hoping Cadillac returns to former glory!

Cadillac's future will be Cadillac’s future and just like in times past, there will be some happy and some disappointed with whatever that "future" is.   The definition of its past, present, and future "glory" can be different for different people.

[Big Apple Caddy]

I wanted to note that in this ad, at around the 40 second point, is the 1st public shot of Cadillac's new Super Cruise.  This is hands free driving.  The green bar on the steering wheel shows the system is engaged.

Yes.  For better or worse those types of "high tech" features are coming to a new Cadillac near you in the future.

[Walter Youshock]

Oh, brother...  suddenly Cadillacs are going to drive themselves but they killed off Guidematic in 1987...  well, at least you can sit in the driver's seat and click the high beams off and on...

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

No matter what anyone may say, I simply don't believe there's not a market for a large luxury car. While I do not dispute that segment has shrunken, there is still a viable portion of buyers who want a car that can transport 4 adults for a long trip in comfort and who don't want to have to buy a truck-based vehicle to do it.

I only proffered the example of the 2010 DTS Premium sale as one possible explanation as to why DTS sales had declined given the tactics GM had used in the past once it's been decided to kill off a vehicle. Contrast that with the fanfare they gave the final 1976 Eldorado Convertible in which final year sales increased to 14,000 compared with just under 10,000 the year before. Of course, there are also external forces such as CAFE ratings, in addition to decreased advertising and incentives/disincentives that can tip the scales in either direction.

In any case, I can only repeat my own sales experiences which leave little question in my mind which Cadillac models have consistently done well for me and which have not - and over a long period of time, and with wide market exposure.