Cadillac Advertising on The Academy Awards

[Scot Minesinger]

Big Apple Caddy,

There is nothing you can write that is going to convince me that Cadillacs were not the thing over MB in the 1970's.  By the end of the decade I had visited twenty states, traveled to many major cities, went to College in PA, hung out in affluent Summit, NJ and the like.  Cadillacs dominated.  I think even on this one if you run your stats, you will see the MB luxury sedans (I think S class was 1972 first year?) were outsold by Cadillac in USA during 1970's, albeit MB gained market share later in the decade.  So this I drop out.

Eric,

I agree there is a market for large luxury sedans, and I do want one in RWD V-8 please.  I loath to by foreign, but may have to.  Last one I enjoyed was a 1995 RWD which I would have purchased again inn 2005 after I sold it if they still made them.  Drove it 254k trouble free enjoyable miles.  Sure the market may have shrunk, but it remains, as otherwise it is unlikely Cadillac would spent all the money developing CT6 with revolutionary carbon fiber/aluminum uni-body to reduce weight by 1,000 lbs.

[Big Apple Caddy]

There is nothing you can write that is going to convince me that Cadillacs were not the thing over MB in the 1970's.

I get that your personal view is that Cadillacs were a "bigger deal" than MBs in the 70s and I wasn't trying to change your personal, subjective feelings.  A "bigger deal" isn't exactly easy to qualify or quantify anyway.   Is something a bigger deal because it sells more and is much more widely available and accessible (Cadillac) or does that make it less of a big deal because it’s more common?  Is something a bigger deal because it can command a lot more money or does that make it less of a big deal because it's more out of the reach and mind of the everyday Joe?    Just commenting.........not really looking for answers! 

I agree there is a market for large luxury sedans, and I do want one in RWD V-8 please.

As far large luxury sedans go, even today Cadillac sells more in the U.S. than Mercedes.  Last year, Mercedes-Benz sold less than 19,000 (figure also includes coupes and convertibles) S-Class models while Cadillac sold over 31,000 XTSs and CT6s.  Of course there is still "a market" and Cadillac is still a very big player in that market.  It's just a much much smaller market.

[WTL]

Even if the market is smaller, does that mean it makes sense for Cadillac not to fill that void?  How many different sedans does GM develop, market and sell? 

Can we not do one that is in Fleetwood territory?  Just one?  Is this really that hard? 

As someone else said, the commercial market alone sorta calls out for one.  But you could do a big sedan, a stretched ct6 (ct8, I know, i know)...and even if you sell less, even if you build less, you are filling a niche that doesn't seem to be marketed to right now. 

This is why I think that, despite the claims that the niche isnt profitable, that big sedans dont sell, I think the real problem is that the Cadillac brass doesnt really like Cadillac.

___________________________

While I'm at it, why dont we have an El Camino?  What is it with these guys?  People have a soft spot for El Caminos and Eldorados and Broncos and Challengers and all these cars, IMO, are a good idea in a world where there are so many really pedestrian designs.   

[Big Apple Caddy]

Even if the market is smaller, does that mean it makes sense for Cadillac not to fill that void?

Despite the shrunken large luxury sedan market, Cadillac still offers not just one but two large luxury sedans right now.

This is why I think that, despite the claims that the niche isnt profitable, that big sedans dont sell, I think the real problem is that the Cadillac brass doesnt really like Cadillac.

Doesn't like Cadillac???   They're investing over $12 billion to develop a bunch of new Cadillac models through 2020 or so.  One of those is a yet to be announced flagship.

[WTL]

The horse's own mouth said the new flagship would not be a sedan.  Your own statements also have questioned the idea of a large sedan.  Ct6 is the closest we are gonna get, so lets not now try to have it the other way and pretend we are in "fleetwood territory".  The CT6 is basically the same length as the first generation seville, a car that at the time was marketed as being a premium smaller Cadillac.   

As for not liking Cadillac, the whole tenor of this discussion, as well as the trajectory of Cadillac marketing for years, has been that Cadillac is trying distance themselves from the boat like grandpa mobiles.  That is what I meant by not liking Cadillac, and I think, despite the investment of money, it is pretty clearly a correct remark.  They seem to be somewhat at odds with the legacy.  Its as if McDonalds decided that burgers are not profitable anymore (which may be true), and decided to make personal pizzas and drop burgers.  Yes maybe they can rebrand themselves as a premium competitor dealing in a wholly different food item, but at this point to do so they might as well just get a new name with that capital outlay.  McDonalds means burgers, and Cadillac means big freaking luxury vehicles...not corvettes with burl interior, or european sport sedans. 

[Big Apple Caddy]

The horse's own mouth said the new flagship would not be a sedan.  Your own statements also have questioned the idea of a large sedan. 

I wasn't suggesting the flagship was going to be a four door sedan (!!maybe it will be a four door coupe!! ) just that one of the upcoming new models will be the yet to be announced flagship.

Cadillac means big freaking luxury vehicles

This is much more about the changing market environment than GM arbitrarily deciding something.   

I suppose you think that the NY Times should stick with their print editions forever?   The phone companies should stick with landline phones forever?  Eastman Kodak should've stuck with making camera film forever?  Smith Corona should've stuck with making typewriters forever?  Blockbuster should’ve stuck with rental stores forever?  I could go on and on but my point is that just because a business or brand once may have been so very well known and popular for something doesn’t mean that will be the case forever and trying to stick too much to the past can be very unwise to the point of even leading to the end of the company/brand forever.

Tastes, interests, technology, and what defines a certain standard, norm or whatever can change and evolve.  "Big freaking" domestic luxury automobiles may have been the norm in past decades but we're in the 2010s now and Cadillac needs to keep moving forward just as it did from the types of vehicles it sold way back in 1903.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

What does technology have to do with the proportions necessary to transport 4 adults in comfort plus a week's worth of luggage?

[D.Smith]

What does technology have to do with the proportions necessary to transport 4 adults in comfort plus a week's worth of luggage?

Good luck getting a weeks worth of luggage in the trunk of anything today.   The last road trip I went on with two other buddies for a week had three full sized suitcase and three carry-on sized duffle bags.  We barely got them in the trunk of Brand Xs largest luxury car.    Which brings a good point about large cars used by Livery or "black car" services.  Its sad to think that you'll have to get picked up at the airport in a luxury SUV if you have any other passengers and luggage.

[WTL]

But here is the thing;  Cadillac isn't by itself. Blockbuster was.   Cadillac is but one division of the larger GM pie, which has the ability to branch out among all of its divisions a collective lineup that serves most tastes, including emerging ones - and not to confuse the public generally with conflicting signals and poor, nondescriptive nomenclature. 

Not every car GM sells has to be a huge profit.  Cadillac, cause of its name is uniquely positioned to be the one American car company offering a car at the top echelon price and build wise, all the while you allow the midsized sedan market to be served by Impalas, Regals, ect...you make as much money as you can there, and then you rebrand the Elmiraj the Eldorado, and stretch a similar version into a sedan (fleetwood).  Look at the Mercedes Maybach, it is 214 inches. 

Cadillac will only kill the memory of the  180 hp Devilles if it builds a car that puts that thought to rest.  It needs to own it's heritage, not run from it. 

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Good luck getting a weeks worth of luggage in the trunk of anything today.   The last road trip I went on with two other buddies for a week had three full sized suitcase and three carry-on sized duffle bags.  We barely got them in the trunk of Brand Xs largest luxury car.    Which brings a good point about large cars used by Livery or "black car" services.  Its sad to think that you'll have to get picked up at the airport in a luxury SUV if you have any other passengers and luggage.

Unless your buds are particularly heavy travelers, an 1980 RWD should have been up to the task. 

[Big Apple Caddy]

What does technology have to do with the proportions necessary to transport 4 adults in comfort plus a week's worth of luggage?

The main reason I included technology was simply because it is among various things that can contribute to changes in the market environment.  But as far as cars go and with WTL's references to exterior lengths, technology has helped improve and advance design, engineering, etc. to allow cars to still be "big" inside while smaller/shorter outside.

[Big Apple Caddy]

But here is the thing;  Cadillac isn't by itself. Blockbuster was.   Cadillac is but one division of the larger GM pie, which has the ability to branch out among all of its divisions a collective lineup that serves most tastes, including emerging ones - and not to confuse the public generally with conflicting signals and poor, nondescriptive nomenclature.

Blockbuster typically wasn't "by itself" and was part of larger corporate entities that included other entertainment related divisions.  Cadillac, part of GM, has seen its large sedan business greatly decline but since they don't want to see Cadillac disappear they are investing heavily to introduce new models that will be more popular and profitable in the current market and perhaps eventually even allow them to tackle more niche segments down the road.

Look at the Mercedes Maybach, it is 214 inches.

If you are that hung up on the length of a car and 204.1” isn’t long enough for you, go out and buy yourself a $167,000+ Mercedes-Maybach S550 with its poor, nondescriptive nomenclature.    For a whole lot less money, you could also get yourself a custom stretched Cadillac from a Cadillac Master Coachbuilder or Cadillac Professional sales dealer.   Stretched sedans, limousines, they’re all out there.......have fun!    For even less still, you could also simply get a CT6 and put large 5.5” bumper guards on the front and on the back and then you’ll have your 215.1” car………even longer than the Mercedes-Maybach!!! 

It needs to own it's heritage, not run from it.

Cadillac needs to operate in the present and look to the future and not get too stuck in the past. 

[D.Smith]

Unless your buds are particularly heavy travelers, an 1980 RWD should have been up to the task. 

Unfortunately Hertz doesn't rent those anymore. LOL

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

...technology has helped improve and advance design, engineering, etc. to allow cars to still be "big" inside while smaller/shorter outside.

No doubt, however "efficient" use of space can only be taken so far before styling is sacrificed.

[WTL]

Cadillac needs to operate in the present and look to the future and not get too stuck in the past.

The future is the proliferation of car companies that continue to make more reliable cars, cheaply, with each company delving into luxury and further saturating the market. 

That is why Cadillac has to be The Standard of the World.  It has to position itself as being #1 The best and #2 A different type of luxury from the other contenders. 

Otherwise, it really will be just one of many.  Eventually, the many Hyundais of the automotive world will take over.  That is why Cadillac needs to sharpen their focus on what they have done well, and stop playing a game they cannot win. 

There is room at the top, and only the top for Cadillac.  CT6? OK is not good enough.   

[Big Apple Caddy]

CT6? OK is not good enough.   

The CT6 may end up "it" as far as being the longest sedan in Cadillac's upcoming lineup.  You've talked about "Fleetwood territory" but just as in the past, even a longer car wouldn't necessarily be the company's flagship sedan as far as price level.  The shorter Seville has often been the brand's priciest sedan.  The 1993-96 Fleetwood was priced at the lower end of the Cadillac lineup while the Seville SLS/STS was several to many thousands higher during that time AND had thousands more buyers.

If Cadillac goes with a performance sports coupe/convertible for its "flagship", you may be looking at a car shorter than even the ATS.

[Chas]

We can sit here and argue WHEN Mercedes became the ne plus ultra luxury car for the masses. Did they pass Cadillac in the 1970's? The 1980's? Who cares! What IS readily apparent is that they changed the paradigm of what luxury cars should be. Did they do it by having plusher interiors, a larger selection of paint chips, more chrome, a softer ride? No, they redefined the category with better braking, a cleaner design,  taunt suspension, and an adherence to quality.....one example of which would be witnessed through consistent panel gaps. Having said that, what I don't understand today is Cadillac's slavish devotion to everything having to do with Stuttgart! You'll never get back to being number one if you're constantly comparing your product to the standard-bearer. "Look, it's just about as good as the new Whamo"! No, Cadillac has to do what Mercedes did in the past. Cadillac has to change the paradigm. They have to CHANGE THE GAME. The world does not need another S class car .I'm giving my kudos here to the folks at Lincoln. You look at and drive a new Continental and I'll bet that during the design phase, the engineering and marketing staff spent all of one hour discussing Mercedes and Audi. The pre-production model they released during the shows last year was the first car to make me sit up and notice in I don't know how long. Naturally, it got watered down when it hit the showroom. But there's nothing else like it out there in the luxury car space. They changed the game. Dare Greatly Indeed! 

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

At least the best health insurance policies are dubbed "Cadillac Plans". 

Unfortunately I cannot afford one of those...

[WTL]

We can sit here and argue WHEN Mercedes became the ne plus ultra luxury car for the masses. Did they pass Cadillac in the 1970's? The 1980's? Who cares! What IS readily apparent is that they changed the paradigm of what luxury cars should be. Did they do it by having plusher interiors, a larger selection of paint chips, more chrome, a softer ride? No, they redefined the category with better braking, a cleaner design,  taunt suspension, and an adherence to quality.....one example of which would be witnessed through consistent panel gaps. Having said that, what I don't understand today is Cadillac's slavish devotion to everything having to do with Stuttgart! You'll never get back to being number one if you're constantly comparing your product to the standard-bearer. "Look, it's just about as good as the new Whamo"! No, Cadillac has to do what Mercedes did in the past. Cadillac has to change the paradigm. They have to CHANGE THE GAME. The world does not need another S class car .I'm giving my kudos here to the folks at Lincoln. You look at and drive a new Continental and I'll bet that during the design phase, the engineering and marketing staff spent all of one hour discussing Mercedes and Audi. The pre-production model they released during the shows last year was the first car to make me sit up and notice in I don't know how long. Naturally, it got watered down when it hit the showroom. But there's nothing else like it out there in the luxury car space. They changed the game. Dare Greatly Indeed!

I agree with everything you said, and think you said it better than I have been saying.  You can't beat Mercedes with their own formula, so I am fiddling with ideas on how Cadillac can raise above the german cars.  I also agree that Lincoln is at least attempting to do what Cadillac should be doing, right down to even the marketing.  Matthew McConnehy doing donuts on a lakebed is way better than people walking backwards in some big city (the big apple??? ). 

[Big Apple Caddy]

We can sit here and argue WHEN Mercedes became the ne plus ultra luxury car for the masses. Did they pass Cadillac in the 1970's? The 1980's? Who cares!

If the premise is that MB was once "behind" Cadillac and that they eventually "passed" Cadillac, then the when does matter as that will better help determine the why.  I don’t know what decided that Cadillac is/was #1 anyway.   Based on what?  What were the criteria?   What brands were considered the competition?

What IS readily apparent is that they changed the paradigm of what luxury cars should be. Did they do it by having plusher interiors, a larger selection of paint chips, more chrome, a softer ride?  No, they redefined the category with better braking, a cleaner design,  taunt suspension, and an adherence to quality.....one example of which would be witnessed through consistent panel gaps. Having said that, what I don't understand today is Cadillac's slavish devotion to everything having to do with Stuttgart!  You'll never get back to being number one if you're constantly comparing your product to the standard-bearer. "Look, it's just about as good as the new Whamo"! No, Cadillac has to do what Mercedes did in the past. Cadillac has to change the paradigm. They have to CHANGE THE GAME. The world does not need another S class car .

That's all fine but what also can't be ignored is that Mercedes went down market more into Cadillac territory.  For so many years here, even the cheapest MBs had higher base prices than many, most or all of the Cadillac models at the time and then MBs started to become less than the cheapest Cadillac.  Sure, both brands (and others) have gone down market but MB really has.

MB has also tacked the hot crossover/SUV market more aggressively than Cadillac.  At least Caddy does have a couple of new crossovers coming out over the next couple years which should really help to boost sales for the brand.  It will still give them fewer than MB, though.

I'm giving my kudos here to the folks at Lincoln. You look at and drive a new Continental and I'll bet that during the design phase, the engineering and marketing staff spent all of one hour discussing Mercedes and Audi. 

I had thought just as Cadillac was basically trying to positioning itself against MB and BMW, Lincoln was basically trying to position itself against Lexus, Infiniti and Audi.   The market has become more global with more direct import luxury competition here and a greater desire for the domestic brands to compete overseas.

The pre-production model they released during the shows last year was the first car to make me sit up and notice in I don't know how long. Naturally, it got watered down when it hit the showroom. But there's nothing else like it out there in the luxury car space. They changed the game. Dare Greatly Indeed!

I think it's a stretch to say there's absolutely "nothing else like it in the luxury car space."  Continental name aside, even Cadillac's own aging XTS has many similar attributes: four door sedan, FWD or AWD, V6 engines with up to 400 or so hp, similar size, pricing, etc.