sold a CT6 this week

[Big Apple Caddy]

Maybe we can build one area of consensus here? - a new Fleetwood/CT8/renamed CT6...would be a specialty vehicle.  Can we agree on that?

It's purpose isn't to be the sales flagship, but rather an option for admirers of Cadillac - fans of what it has traditionally been.  A moral flagship maybe. As such, it does not necessarily need to be built in huge numbers.  But I would argue it does need to be built. 

Such a car would need to be set apart from the rest of the lineup.  Escalade too is set apart.  Why not Fleetwood?  What is it really hurting to just give in?  lol, the trim letters arent that expensive! (Or maybe they are, considering the Escala...)

The Fleetwood name carries undesirable baggage (e.g., old man car, land yacht, etc) and didn't sell particularly well in 1993-96 (smaller DeVille sold much, much better) even when large sedans were more in demand.  Typical new buyers today simply aren't seeking large sedans like they used nor view them as positively as they used to and for Cadillac to go too deeply into that segment can potentially hurt sales (old man, land yacht image) more than help.

The CT6 is a very fine car and it would sell much better if the market for those types of cars was as strong as it used to be.  Right now, Cadillac needs more presence in segments that are growing/popular (crossovers/SUVs) than in those that have been in decline (large sedans).

As far as "specialty" vehicles, I think Cadillac's yet to be announced flagship model will likely fall into that category.  So far there has been little word on what it WILL be, only that it WON'T be a "large four-door sedan" at least according to DeNysschen.  My guess has been that it will be some sort of performance sports car coupe/convertible but who knows?

[Big Apple Caddy]

NO DESIRE FOR BIG SEDANS???  REALLY?  Have you actually read the responses posted here??? 

I don't think anyone here has said there is NO desire for big sedans, just a lot less so.  One would expect comments expressed on a site with such a strong bias towards older/classic cars (when large sedans were much more common and in demand) to show interest in large sedans but that' only reflects a fraction of the broader interest or demand of new vehicles buyers today.  The demand for large sedans just isn't there like it used to be.

[Scot Minesinger]

Big Apple Caddy is probably right about reduced demand for large luxury sedans.  Always enjoy this forum and like the participants, and if we are really looking at ourselves honestly you can read BAC is on the money for this topic.  This forum is a minority in public demand, otherwise there would be a lot more classic cars on the road.  If you read the critics on this forum even if Cadillac made a large V-8 RWD sedan and called it Fleetwood, this forum may write justifications not to buy it.  The CT6 is really a great looking RWD car and large enough, but still you read negatives than expected.  I applaud the forum participants who have bought the CT6 and wrote in about it. 

For me it is too tempting to buy a used luxury car and pay 50% of msrp with a great warranty than to buy new, but it is not ruled out.  If CT6 is V-8 equipped probably will buy a two year old one, the soonest that would be is model year 2018 and a 2020 purchase.  If my work and investments go well will buy a new one.

Hopefully Cadillac will get the word out on CT6 to qualified buyers and sales will go up, which will improve the image.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

While the demand for full size luxury cars may not be what it had been in the past, by no means has it evaporated completely either, ie: commercial, livery service and such in addition to private use. And what could be more fitting than for Cadillac to fulfill this niche?

Stylewise however, is where the CT6 is lacking in my opinion. To my eyes, it is either a large car that is trying to look like a small one - or a very bloated small car. An ATS on steroids if you will.  It lacks the grace, distinction and presence of the proud top of the line full size  Cadillac sedans of the past.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, stylistically - Cadillac needs to do some soul searching and decide which path it wants to take: Distinction & greatness or crowd-following mediocrity.

[Scot Minesinger]

Eric,

No one is saying the large sedan market is gone, just that it is less than it was - things always change, so demand either changes up or down.  In consideration of all large sedans offered today on the luxurious side, say Chrysler 300, Cadillac, Lincoln, MB, BMW, Jag, Lexus, and the like what would you buy in say the 70k plus or minus 15k price range that exemplifies the style you wish CT6 had? 

I did buy a brand new 2014 Chrysler 300 with hemi V-8 because my wife wanted it and it was the least expensive of this group by far.  BTW she thought it was a Cadillac at first (she saw the back of it - and had to have it).  She was content to get a 6 cylinder, but I said "You are married to me, it is a V-8 or nothing" in joking way, but kind of was the truth.

In cities like Washington DC where I live near (20 miles exactly), NY, and Boston for example many of the buildings were constructed before SUV's were a thing and SUV's are often too tall to fit into parking garages.  The Kennedy Center in DC, is a great example, as it was completed in late 1960's or so.  My wife could never drive the Suburban there.  Plus in a city, back-up cameras and all a sedan is much easier to park than an SUV.  This parking garage issue, parking in crowded areas, and other limitations within city areas is a likely contributor to increased crossover vehicle sales - roomy - 5 passengers no problem - manages city driving/parking limitations easier than Escalade.

I have seen several CT6's driving around and I think they look great. 

[59-in-pieces]

Eric,
I am glad we agree.
A number of other posters seem to make excuses - expressing a sentiment of "WE'RE GETTING BETTER".
How you stay behind is always trying to catch up, or fit in.
STAND OUT - the front end design with its knife edge treatments speaks Cadillac - the rest not so much - if at all.
As with Eric, I've said it before, and I'll say it again - "Dump Dare Greatly" - and adopt "Design Greatly" = "Uniquely".
Have fun,
Steve B.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Eric,

No one is saying the large sedan market is gone, just that it is less than it was - things always change, so demand either changes up or down.  In consideration of all large sedans offered today on the luxurious side, say Chrysler 300, Cadillac, Lincoln, MB, BMW, Jag, Lexus, and the like what would you buy in say the 70k plus or minus 15k price range that exemplifies the style you wish CT6 had?   

Scot...I think you may have missed the first sentence of my post:

While the demand for full size luxury cars may not be what it had been in the past, by no means has it evaporated completely either..

In any case, I am glad you mentioned the Chrysler 300. Although I'm no fan, it is distinctive in its own way and was a huge hit when it first appeared. Other examples of retro styling are the PT Cruiser, Challenger, Camaro and Mustang - all of which have proved popular with buyers.

Why is it that the automobile division whose motto is "Dare Greatly" has products among the least inspired of all? Vertical taillights alone don't cut it.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Eric,
I am glad we agree.
A number of other posters seem to make excuses - expressing a sentiment of "WE'RE GETTING BETTER".
How you stay behind is always trying to catch up, or fit in.
STAND OUT - the front end design with its knife edge treatments speaks Cadillac - the rest not so much - if at all.
As with Eric, I've said it before, and I'll say it again - "Dump Dare Greatly" - and adopt "Design Greatly" = "Uniquely".
Have fun,
Steve B.

Steve..."Dare Greatly" - as much as it "greatly" pains me to say it - itself is lacking in self confidence and assuredness.
It is as if the Division is desperately trying to convince itself of something they know their products are anything but.

"Standard of the World" said it all.

When they can't even come up with a decent tagline - that pretty much says it all. 

[64\/54Cadillacking]

Steve...Cadillac's motto - as much as it "greatly" pains me to say it - itself is lacking in self confidence and assuredness.
It is as if the Division is desperately trying to convince itself of something they know their products are anything but.

"Standard of the World" said it all.

When they can't even come up with a decent tagline - that pretty much says it all. 

As much as I love Cadillacs, they haven't been a relevant brand in over 20 years. I know they are trying, and their products have improved immensely from just 5 years ago, but they honestly have a serious marketing issue that has haunted them for a very long time now.

I mean, when was the last time any of you have seen a great TV commercial from Cadillac? If they are trying to get more buyers to look at the CT6, then a massive marketing campaign needs to follow suit or else nobody will ever know about it.

As much as I used to bash Lincoln over the years for their horrible product lineup, the brand finally saw the light and built the Continental. Sure it's not the best looking car and is mostly unoriginal in its styling, but you can tell by its efforts that were put into the car, and how the company is advertising it on TV and in print.  Lincoln isn't shying away from it's past anymore, and is actually embracing it, being the luxury car company that attracts the educated, sophisticated, younger buyer that is done being in a little luxury sports car and wants something cool, big, and comfortable that can allow his or her friends along for the ride.

You compare them to Cadillac, and Cadillacs by far has the worst marketing campaign in the business. It's like they arent even trying, and the slogan is pretty lame if you ask me.

I agree "Design Greatly" would be a great change-up, and one I think is more honest with the public.

Names do matter to a lot of luxury car buyers, including styling, so if someone that is an established luxury car buyer and maybe has owned 2 or 3 newish ones, I really feel like the buyer is going to want to purchase a new car that has some identity to it. A name that is recognizable among the luxury world.

The CT6 sounds like the designers got too lazy and unimaginable to even care about what the public thinks, rather than having at least a couple of names in their lineup to make the car truly stand out in the crowded luxury field with the same nomenclature lineups throughout the industry, a good solid name would and could have helped the model. It's like the company is afraid if they name a car, people won't buy it. So they have nothing to lose.

I still love the Ciel and Elmiraj. Why can't they just use those? Is upper management that stingy and uptight to not care? It's common sense and a no brainer for them to use at least one of those names for a flagship. Arghhh, The frustration continues.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Dare Greatly...

[Scot Minesinger]

Eric (and other CT6 don't like the style posters)

Take a look at my question in #44.  Please reread question about what modern car you would buy if you had to.  Looking for answer.  I would buy the V-8 equipped CT6 if it existed, otherwise probably the MB S class w/smallest V-8.

I agree a retro 1962 Cadillac would sell really well, heck I would even consider a V-6 version.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

De gustibus non est disputandum.   

[Scot Minesinger]

Eric,

What does that mean?  I'm an engineer, not a language major.  I take it to mean you choose nothing and are not content with the current selection.  You are a purchasing agent for a livery service - what are you buying?

[59-in-pieces]

Eric,

"In matters of taste, there can be no disputes" (literally "about tastes ...

Have fun,
Steve B.

[35-709]

As easy as copying and pasting that phrase to Google, it will translate it for you.

[59-in-pieces]

Eric,
I get it.
The fins, oh the fins, and the "skegs".

But, I will try to hammer the point home again in the hopes that some GM - Cadillac - Exec. might get his hands on this and cause an itch.

Back in the day, Cadillacs apart from its distinctive good looks gained acclaim from its mechanical and electric innovations.
Well, today all of Cadillac's competition has almost exactly the same mechanical and electric - oops - electronics innovations and creature comforts.
So what is left to set Cadillac apart once again - ain't going to be the price - and all things being equal - it needs to be - must be - it's DESIGN.
Have fun,
Steve B.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

  You are a purchasing agent for a livery service - what are you buying?

The last good car for livery service was the Lincoln Town Car, IMO.

Today, it seems a lot of livery operations have defaulted to Escalade/Yukon/Tahoe, Navigator and stretched variants of the above if you want the durability & ride isolation inherent in full frame RWD configured vehicles. That coupled with generous roominess makes these the logical choice for many operators.

Truck classification means these vehicles are not subject to the draconian fuel economy regulations which apply to passenger cars. The net result being the government effectively legislated the full size car off the road for truck-based vehicles whose emissions, economy and are far worse than what would have been the case for regular full size cars that could have been built under more reasonable fuel economy standards! In my view, all fuel economy standards should be abolished and the market decide what cars should be built, in what numbers, at whatever fuel consumption the individual buyer is willing to tolerate. That is another matter.

As for my own personal choice for transportation if I had to choose from new cars only - I'd really have to do some serious soul searching on that.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Eric,
I get it.
The fins, oh the fins, and the "skegs".

But, I will try to hammer the point home again in the hopes that some GM - Cadillac - Exec. might get his hands on this and cause an itch.

Back in the day, Cadillacs apart from its distinctive good looks gained acclaim from its mechanical and electric innovations.
Well, today all of Cadillac's competition has almost exactly the same mechanical and electric - oops - electronics innovations and creature comforts.
So what is left to set Cadillac apart once again - ain't going to be the price - and all things being equal - it needs to be - must be - it's DESIGN.
Have fun,
Steve B.

Steve...you have aced everything on all points 100%.

If you have any kind of "in", I wish you all the luck in the world in your efforts in getting some of them to see the light. What I wouldn't give for an hour audience with top Cadillac brass - even just 15 minutes...

[59-in-pieces]

Eric,
I agree with just a sort audience - don't need to cover old ground about the invention of the wheel.
Just shot gun the poignant issues.

Here's where I walk the edge of Political Correctness - letters to follow, likely.

Hold that meeting, although probably not avoidable, without the 36 year old Marketing Maven.
Who was born long about 1981, and maybe got a license in about 1998.
It might be said that much of the recitals of Cadillac greatness had passed during that period, and the scramble for relevance began.
It is hard to equate or express to others eras of design in the past, when you didn't live them.
Nor do past magazines with 2 dimensional marketing ads convey the flavor of an ice cream cone to any reader who hasn't tasted one.
Just say'n.
Have fun,
Steve B.

[Scot Minesinger]

Eric, 59 in pieces and others with similar posts.

I could not agree more that Cadillac really produced some of the finest cars with respect to their completion at the time and even now in their glory years, for me that is late 1950's thru 1979, plus loved those 1994-1996 RWD FWB's.  Your posts of the 57 Eldorado Brougham, 59 EBZ and 62 black coupe drive this point home - nothing but maybe a few offerings at the time compared.

BTW I'm 56 and a professional engineer (not 36 year old marketer).

I found the hotel for GN 2017.  It is super nice 4 star, best Hilton (#1) in North and South America and it is adjacent to corporate headquarters - hope you like it.  The reason I volunteered was because was not super happy with some past GN hotels, and the main parts of a successful GN is the weather and hotel.  Anyway point is not happy with past and became part of the proactive solution.

It is so easy to criticize.  So I asked what modern luxury sedan you would buy today, because it is not the CT6, and a non-response an exotic response in a foreign language was delivered.  Cadillac is not likely to manufacture the 1962 retro body again it sure seems.  If they did you must have an idea of what my prediction would be about your reaction to it. 

Again, how about it?  What luxury sedan would you buy today if you had to and then everyone will know what direction Cadillac should maybe consider?  It is better to own a classic that continues to be manufactured today (Olds and Pontiac owners relate), so how can CT6 improve sales?