Pre-war (up to 1942) 1939 LaSalle 5019 Engine Noise

[39LaSalleDriver]

Moving on to other projects/goals with my car, I have been working on cleaning up the engine bay. While having the generator and such out, I thought now might be a good time to address the famous flathead tick that many have encountered.

My scenario is that the engine is original to the car, odometer reads 21,000 which could be meaningless, I have no idea of previous work though I suspect it has been at least partially rebuilt at some point. However, my approach has been from a point of view that it has not been rebuilt and is likely full of sludge and crud.

Engine runs great except my compression readings are lower than what they should be (75-80 on all except cylinder 1 which reads at 50). Doesn't burn oil, runs relatively quiet except most (not all) of the time it sounds like a big sewing machine ticking along. It doesn't bother me per se, but I know it means something is wrong and should be addressed.

Having read through postings here I know it could be all sorts of things but I would like to start with removing the oil feed line to the lifters, and giving it and the fittings a good cleaning. Since sometimes it doesn't make the noise, I am crossing my fingers that perhaps that could cure my situation. If not, well...I guess I'll have to make some decisions, but I can definitively say that an engine rebuild is not in the cards for me any time soon.

My question is, is there an easy way to get that line out without removing the exhaust and intake manifolds? Looking down the valley I see some sort of cover which has two bolts that I have loosened, but does not pop off as I anticipated. Am I missing something here, or am I going to have to suck it up and remove the manifolds to open it all up? Thanks

[Steve Passmore]

What your looking at is the full crankcase ventilation tube. They are not part of the covers but are held with many bolts.  Remove the two bolts you have loosened and it should prise off. Sometimes they stick on the cork gaskets.

[39LaSalleDriver]

Thanks Steve. Wanted to check before I got to blundering around. That is the tube which feeds oil to the lifters correct? Am I also correct in that once I have that cover off I can remove the tube for cleaning?

[Bob Hoffmann CLC#96]

Jon,
IMHO I don't see how you can do what you want without removing the exhaust & intake manifold. It sounds like you have a tired old motor. I suggest you live with it. Read Z3skybolts painful experience. Do you really want to work yourself into a rebuild?? Steve, do you agree?
Bob

[harry s]

Bob, You are right. In order to properly clean the oil feed lines to the lifters you would need to remove the manifolds. The tube that goes up the front of the block and connects under the intake might be able to be removed without manifold removal but under the valve body covers there are two more small tubes that feed oil into the lifters. If you are cleaning the system they should be done along with the brass connectors. That gets the system clean up to the lifter blocks and lifters themselves. They can also be removed and cleaned without taking the heads off. It is a big job but if you are going to do it you might as well do the whole thing and hope that quietens the lifters.    Harry

[KenZ]

Since you have low compression in the one cylinder it could be a valve which requires taking the head off.  I agree with Harry regarding the cleaning of the oil supply system to the lifters.  What is your oil pressure?  If the oil pressure is good then your bearings are probably ok. Probably best to take it all apart and clean the lifters, lines and do a valve job on both sides at some point.  Also remove the oil pan and clean it out.  Valve jobs are not uncommon after 50-60K miles on these engines.  This all will take some time but not a huge cost if you can manage it yourself.  There is a special tool for compressing the valve springs which is needed for valve removal.  Hope this gives you some ideas moving forward.  KenZ                   

[Steve Passmore]

Thanks Steve. Wanted to check before I got to blundering around. That is the tube which feeds oil to the lifters correct? Am I also correct in that once I have that cover off I can remove the tube for cleaning?

All the advice here is good and I fully agree with Bob. I have had engines with a 'tick' and have replaced all lifters, valves, springs, and guides but it didn't go away.  There may be many other things going on in there.
You may get the oil fitting off under the manifold but I bet you won't get it back on without crossing the tiny brass threads and as Harry said you still won't get to the other two oil feeds atop the lifter blocks.  Do it all or live with it.

[39LaSalleDriver]

Thanks to everyone who responded. Sounds like to take this on is going to be a bit more than popping off a cover, disconnecting a tube, and cleaning it out like I had hoped 

I'm game as a banty rooster when it comes to working on anything with this car...until it comes to cracking open the engine, transmission, or rear differential. I think I'm going to shelve this issue for the time being and maybe readdress it this winter. I've got too many other things going on right now I want to achieve with it to get bogged down right now; and honestly, I don't know that I'm mentally prepared or skilled enough to go tearing the lifters and valves out at this point. As I said, for my purposes it runs just fine and the tick doesn't particularly bother me. I just thought it might be wise to be proactive about clearing it up before it leads to other problems. Give me credit though...at least I didn't start by pouring Sea Foam or other chemicals in the system which could knock all sorts of stuff loose! 

Don't be surprised if six months from now I dredge up this thread again if I decide to tackle the problem head on. For now I instead will be turning my attention to getting the missing mechanical fuel pump installed and hooked up, and taking care of some questions I have about my carburetor, but I'll start a new thread for that. Thanks again,

JI

[Bobby B]

Probably best to take it all apart and clean the lifters, lines and do a valve job on both sides at some point.  Valve jobs are not uncommon after 50-60K miles on these engines.                 

A "Valve Job" on a 346 Flathead requires taking the block out of the car and taking it to a machine shop ..........Leave it alone and ENJOY your car!
                                                                                     
  Good Call if you ask me. Don't get involved if you're not going to follow thru, because you're most likely going to go deeper in than you thought, and before you know it you'll be into the might-as-wells, which will lead to a rebuild. And we all know how much Fun that is  .........
                                                                                                             Bobby
                                                                                                                                             

[Fred Pennington 25635]

I would disagree with the block needing to come out of the car to do a valve job. If you use the correct tools it is easy to do. I have a Sioux  Valve and Seat grinder that I picked up many years ago when a small town Ford dealership went out of business. It will do the job easily in the car. I know what's coming next " Oh no you have to have hard seats put in". If you are not subjecting your engines to heavy loads like pulling heavy trailers up steep, long hills you will never get enough wear to care. Perfect example who tells you to change your oil every three thousand miles, the new car manufacture that has to warranty the engine or the guy selling you the oil change. Machine shops make a fortune from putting in hard seats in cars that will never need them.

[Steve Passmore]

I think the meaning of the answers are Fred that it's what you will probably get into when you start looking. If the valves are burned away considerably just cutting them is no good because of valve stem clearance, it doesn't take much before one has ground the valve down to the keepers.  They have to have new valve seats fitted and cut to Cadillacs three angle cut. There's also the standard problem with cracks between the seats that need fixing.  I have only dismantled 3 engines that didn't need all this. This cannot be done in the car but the point is that everything else could be worn out maybe, and it goes on and on is all people are saying.  I fully agree on the hard seats though, never bothered with them.

[Bobby B]

I have a Sioux  Valve and Seat grinder that I picked up many years ago when a small town Ford dealership went out of business. It will do the job easily in the car.

I'm sure we all have access to this equipment, and know how to use it. Not worried about metal/stonel particles down in the engine? Cutting the seats to get the correct 3" clearance? I personally would rather start with a freshly cleaned block, and follow it up with another good cleaning after machining and before assembly. I will agree with the hardened seat issue also. None of my pre '72 cars have them, and they're just fine.
                                                                           Bobby

[KenZ]

My meaning of a "valve job" was basically to take them all out do the grinding as Fred suggested. I was told by an Old Timer this is what they did back in the day after an engine had some usage. Yes, the more you expose, the more you will likely find especially with these old flatheads.  If a valve seat is cracked then you have issues.  Steve's experience is right on and one should expect the worse when diving in.  Yes, you can spend a lot of time and money when it's all done and said.  I just overhauled an engine.  My suggestion was only to make it run a little better avoiding an "engine rebuild" as the original post stated.  Maybe a little too optimistic but might be worth a try if one has the capability.                   

[39LaSalleDriver]

Thanks again for everyone's input. I really appreciate the valuable commentary. As I mentioned though, I've been sufficiently warned off 

No sense in looking for trouble at this point in the game. It runs to my satisfaction and the tick, tick, tick doesn't really bother me at all. Maybe someday down the road (hopefully a few years away) I'll have the engine rebuilt, but I guess I'll continue doing regular maintenance and keep it running for now, enjoying the car for what it is.

[harvey b]

I would run some marvel mystery oil in it,that stuff is great for noises like this,i would run it with a quart in it for about 50 miles then drain it when its still hot,you will be suprised how much crud will come out,maybe do this 2 or 3 times and see if it improves,i run it in all my old engines here,seems to help. Harvey

[39LaSalleDriver]

I would run some marvel mystery oil in it,that stuff is great for noises like this,i would run it with a quart in it for about 50 miles then drain it when its still hot,you will be suprised how much crud will come out,maybe do this 2 or 3 times and see if it improves,i run it in all my old engines here,seems to help. Harvey

I've thought about that, but honestly, after doing a lot of reading, I'm more than a bit scared to do this. I honestly don't know what it looks like inside that engine. When I had the rear main seal replaced I had them clean a heavy dose of sludge off the bottom of the oil pan so I know that's good. I just put on a newly rebuilt fuel pump and looking in there didn't look horrid, but there was some gunk around the walls from what I could see and stick my fingers in there and reach.

Not to crack open a can of worms, but I'm not opposed to dropping MMO in there IF I can be sure that it won't harm anything by knocking something loose where it doesn't need to be. Admittedly, in everything I've read, I can't point to any first hand accounts of someone having it mess anyone's engine up, but there's tons of people who comment that it "could" do that.

I guess the jury is still out for me on that with the main part of me saying "don't mess with it if it ain't broke."