Limo divider question

[wrench]

Over the years, Cadillac limos have been produced with power dividers. I am curious about some of the history of limo dividers and how privacy needs of the passengers were met, while the professional driver met the needs of the passengers.

Historically, are limo dividers only controlled by the passenger? Or are there controls on both sides with a way to switch off the driver's switch?

I am more interested in the historic/traditional protocol rather than maybe modern limo computer controls and maybe how they have evolved over time.

I also realize there are phones/intercoms and call bells, but these involve a different level of
Interaction between the passengers privacy and driver needing to anticipate the passenger's needs/situation.

I figure you guys would be the best reference source for how these dividers were equipped and operated.

Thanks

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Not an expert on the matter but I'm fairly certain the division window controls were located in the rear, accessible by the rear seat passengers only. I think only one control was provided but that is only a guess. Much bemoaned was the elimination (in 1977) of the electrically operated division window which was replaced by a pair of manually sliding windows that the rear seat passenger(s) would have to physically shut themselves.

David E. Davis of Car and Driver humorously touched on this subject regarding the division window used in the then-new 1977 Formal Limousine wondering what message it might convey to the chauffeur should a rear seat passenger inadvertently use a bit too much force in sliding the division windows shut. "We do not want to offend the help. Is that understood?" Who could take offence when the same task is discretely (and quietly) handled by that wondrous invention called the electric motor?

On a 1977 Limousine I owned (non Formal version), dual rear side power windows switches however, were provided on both rear doors enabling either rear seat passenger to operate both rear windows.

The radio operation of the limousine was also different: The main (front compartment) radio volume control affected the front dash mounted speakers only. When the rear radio control was turned on, the front radio off/on volume control is rendered inactive and the volume for all speakers is imperiously regulated by the rear volume control. This is somewhat annoying if you drive the car yourself (alone) because you cannot enjoy the the rear speakers without getting out and setting volume in the rear compartment. And then it cannot be lowered without stopping the car, getting out and doing the same thing all over again so you're pretty much resigned to listening to the front speakers which don't sound that great when played alone.

These are a few of some of the unique operational features of the Limousine I owned many years ago. My memory may be a bit hazy on a point or two but this is to the best of my recollection.     

[Jeff Hansen]

The first power-operated divider window in a production Cadillac was in 1941 when the mechanism was electrically operated in the series 60S, 67, and 75.  Controls to raise/lower the glass were found on each rear armrest - a brown rocker-type switch labeled "U" on one side of the rocker and "D" on the other side.  No controls in the front compartment at all to raise or lower the glass.

The electrically powered divider window remained for 1942 on all three series before it went to Hydro-Lectric (hydraulic) in 1946.  The divider window was only available on the series 75 starting in 1946.

In 1940 and 1941, Cadillac built several executive customs from the series 60S and 62 - some of which had divider windows (and door glass in certain instances) powered by electric motors and, I believe, some by hydraulic systems.

Jeff

<edited by Hansen on 8-March-2019 at 1549 EDT to add content>

[wrench]

Excellent information in your replies!

Thanks gentlemen, I do appreciate it.

Any further input would also be appreciated.

The power window and radio controls anecdotes are great background as well to the environment of the rear occupant of a private limo.

This is truly helpful information.

[jaxops]

The divider can be operated from the back on the older Cadillacs.  There may have been a driver control switch on the later 1966-68 models but I could be wrong.  Lincoln also came up with a material-covered divider which could be raised in front of the glass divider for additional privacy.  Some limousines had phones to the driver, or just a buzzer that told the driver to "speed up" or "stop."  Usually the passengers just dropped the divider a little to tell the driver what they needed.  The thinking was though, a good driver would know where to go and would not need to be further instructed.  Companies like Durham would cover the rear window and eliminate quarter windows in the custom designs to restrict views of the passengers.  We had a 1960 limousine with that treatment as well as a large "S" bar over where the quarter windows would be.  They used the same window control arm that was used to raise and lower the station wagons' rear windows for the divider.  As it was stated, early 1940s and 1950 Cadillacs had electro-hydraulic windows including the divider  as they were very quick to raise and lower, and were whisper-quiet. 

[D.Smith]

I am more interested in the historic/traditional protocol rather than maybe modern limo computer controls and maybe how they have evolved over time.

Thanks

Everyone is dancing around the original question.    So i'll take it.

The limousine partition goes way back.   You have to look back to pre-motorcars even.    Wealthy people rode in enclosed carriages.    The horsemen rode outside up front.    So when the automobile evolved and manufacturers added limousines to their offerings the rear compartments were again enclosed and the poor driver sat out in the elements.   Eventually the drivers compartments would get side curtains and a fold back roof.  But the wealthy owners still rode comfortably in back.   Communication of course was needed between the two, so the divider window was lowered by a simple crank handle.    But that was not ideal in bad weather, nor was it convenient to rear seat passengers so speaking tubes were added.     Years later when the partitions were hydraulically or power operated the speaking tubes went away.

Security has always been a factor.   The partition windows could only be lowered from the rear compartment.  Same for later versions.    Just in case your driver turned out to be some radical and tried to expose you to kidnappers. 

So even though the open top drivers compartment style went away post war, the privacy divider windows remained in the limousines.   You didn't want the help to overhear the family gossip of course!    They might sell the info to the tabloids!

So the origin of the partition window goes back to the very beginning.   It was needed to keep the passengers in back dry and warm in the days the driver sat out front in the open.   

[wrench]

Thanks again for the further input. Again, this is great info.

It is the evolution of the privacy and communication between professional driver and the VIP that Inhave an interest in.

How to ensure privacy while meeting the needs of the VIP in the context of transporting them.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Just for further clarity, prior to 1977 the Series 75 model was designated either "8 passenger sedan" which did not have division window or "Limousine" which did and the front compartment would be trimmed in all black with black leather, regardless of the color selection for the the rear compartment.

Beginning in 1977, the Series 75 designation was dropped and the two models were "Fleetwood Limousine" and "Fleetwood Formal Limousine", the latter being the version with division window and black trimmed front compartment.

The Limousine (prior to 1977) & Formal Limousine (1977 & up) had a few extra features for added security to the rear seat passengers - including the right rear door that had it's own exterior door lock, accessible only by a special key that operated that lock only.

I believe the power door lock arrangement was also slightly different in that the power door lock controls were located in the rear compartment only preventing a "rogue" driver from unlocking the rear doors.

[Lexi]

Further to David's response as well as commenting on protocol as per the original post. I was told that an additional concern for those in the back seat was maintaining the privacy of their belongings.  With the car parked and the chauffeur waiting for the return of his VIP passengers, he would not have access to what they may have left behind such as confidential business papers for example. My '56 Limo's divider window is only controlled from the rear seat. The chauffeur's exterior window controls also are limited with respect to what they control. He can only put the rear 2 windows UP, and not down.

There is also only one rear door cylinder and it is controlled by a separate key. The chauffeur's key only operates the ignition and permits his access to the front driver compartment. The VIP have their own different key. So when they step out and lock up, the chauffeur does not have any access to the rear seating area as long as the division window is up.

I as well was advised that the use of black leather for the front seat and cloth upholstery in the rear, is also a throw back to the horse drawn carriage days when the driver sat outside in the elements. His seat was often leather, which could be oiled and made somewhat moisture resistant. The passengers sat inside the coach surrounded by rich broad cloth upholstery. So a Cadillac limousine's leather front seat was perhaps one of the automobile's last vestiges of class consciousness. When at a car show I have often been asked "Who is the drunk that did your upholstery" as I have a black leather front seat but tan upholstery in the back. I have to explain that is OEM and intentional. Also, my car also has curb lights, I believe only for the rear seating compartment. Seems like another perk for the VIPs.

Further to Eric's radio comments, the '56 limo radio does not have an optional jack for a driver operated foot control, as I believe the other radios offered did. Instead, that remote signal seeking option was provided to the VIPs who could scan for stations using the red lit button in the rear seat. The radio still has the traditional "wonder bar" though. Clay/Lexi

Edit: Almost forgot, but the mid fifties divider windows had a slight curve to them. Perhaps inspired by the wrap around windshields of the time.

[veesixteen]

My 1942  Series 75, style 7519F had an electric power divider.
What is special about that model is that the glass was curved; it wrapped around the front seat back.
Does yours do the same, Jeff?

(unfortunately, I have no photos of the actual curved glass).

[cadillacmike68]

Just for further clarity, prior to 1977 the Series 75 model was designated either "8 passenger sedan" which did not have division window or "Limousine" which did and the front compartment would be trimmed in all black with black leather, regardless of the color selection for the the rear compartment.

Beginning in 1977, the Series 75 designation was dropped and the two models were "Fleetwood Limousine" and "Fleetwood Formal Limousine", the latter being the version with division window and black trimmed front compartment.

The Limousine (prior to 1977) & Formal Limousine (1977 & up) had a few extra features for added security to the rear seat passengers - including the right rear door that had it's own exterior door lock, accessible only by a special key that operated that lock only.

I believe the power door lock arrangement was also slightly different in that the power door lock controls were located in the rear compartment only preventing a "rogue" driver from unlocking the rear doors.

That's right, in the Fleetwood 75 limousines, the power locks in the front only Locked the doors. Only the rear lock would unlock them.

The Series 75s through 1970 at least were designated as 9 passenger sedans.

[Jeff Hansen]

My 1942  Series 75, style 7519F had an electric power divider.
What is special about that model is that the glass was curved; it wrapped around the front seat back.
Does yours do the same, Jeff?

(unfortunately, I have no photos of the actual curved glass).

Yann, the divider window in my 7533 is flat.  The curved divider glass in 1941/1942 was unique to the series 6719F and 7519F.

The Series 75s through 1970 at least were designated as 9 passenger sedans.

In the 1940s, they were either 5, 7, or 9 passenger sedans.  Five or seven passenger depends on whether the car had jump seats or the style of the jump seats.  Nine passenger jobs were the livery models (7523L and 7533L).

Jeff

[Barry M Wheeler #2189]

I had one of the 95 1941 6719Fs with the curved glass division. It also had Hydramatic as well. When I had the seats done, I had her do the front in black and the rear in beige. The image is slightly off as my hand moved a bit holding the book. Wish I still had this one.

[wrench]

Thanks for all the input, guys.

An interesting point is about the curved divider glass. Are we talking flat glass with a curved top to meet the contour of the roof, or curved in another sense?

My question would be about the development of the curved glass manufacturing history.

I guess specifically for the automotive industry, but also other application.

Back then, immediate pre-war, it seems to me that auto glass was all
flat, unless someone could tell me otherwise as I really don't know.

At some point, curved glass became more readily available and was incorporated into later designs at GM and other makes.

Does anyone know more about when curved glass first became used in autos? I am wondering if this curved divider may have been another Cadillac first?

I have always thought the transition from flat glass to curved glass was an interesting milestone in automotive design.

[Jeff Maltby 4194]

1934 the Chrysler Imperial Airflow CW appeared, the first production car to come with a single-piece curved windshield.
http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/windshield-history.cfm

[tozerco]

I can only speak about the 1936/37 series 75 cars and I note in particular your interest in the privacy aspects of these installations - these "Imperial" sedans had a MANUALLY operated very thick, heavy glass, flat "division" window with the glass disappearing vertically down into the panel/seat back between the front and rear compartments. This glass could ONLY be operated by use of a handle located in the centre of the "divider" and from the rear seat ONLY.

This next description may have varied depending on what model of car we are talking about but these cars generally also had an intercom system installed in them. This was essential if the rear seat (privileged) passengers were not to have to wind the division glass down and up again every time they wanted to talk to or instruct the driver/chauffeur, and for the rare occasion that the chauffeur was to talk to the rear seat passenger/s. Again, I think this intercom system (that consisted of a large control unit and speaker-like grille in the roof lining of the driver/chauffeur compartment so the driver/chauffeur could hear and speak to the rear seat, and a small speaker or pair of speakers in the 3/4 panel lining at the rear of the car so the passengers could hear) could only be activated from the rear seat - I don't think the chauffeur was supposed to INITIATE a conversation! - and this was done by using an intercom "handset" much like the old two-way radio handsets that had a button to activate the communication. These handsets, which by the way are almost IMPOSSIBLE to come by now.... if anyone has one spare, please let me know!.... were wired to the car by a spiral cable. There was also a "pocket" in the interior lining of the car to place the handset in when not in use.

It was also quite common for these cars to have an external door handle with a key cylinder in it for BOTH the front and rear doors on the kerb side so that the rear compartment could be locked separately to the front compartment. Any of the cars WITHOUT the division window came standard with a keyless/cylinderless door handle.

To complete the privacy arrangements, for the years that I know of (1936/37), a rear window "pull-down" fabric blind was included.

[Barry M Wheeler #2189]

Curved means curved. The ends of the glass were bent to align with the seat back. The glass was also "curved" to snug up to the headliner. On Imperial Divisions, the area between the seats was a somewhat larger bulkhead that contained the glass, which as already noted, was flat.

[veesixteen]

Does anyone have a PHOTO of the "curved" (bent?) divider glass (in the authenticity manual perhaps; I no longer have mine?).
The '53 Eldorado had one of the first (production) "wrap-around" windshields; were they first?

[Barry M Wheeler #2189]

I just had an infinity (I can't spell it, but you know what I mean...) How many years earlier than 1941 was the back light glass curved? That must have been when PPG was first able to "bend" sheet glass.

[Lexi]

With respect to the "new curved wrap around windshield", Cadillac introduced it in 1950, however the 1949 proto-type Coupe De Ville custom featured the 1950 curved (one piece) windshield. This car was said to be the "sensation" of the 1949 Waldorf show. Currently part of the Plunkett collection, this vehicle is noteworthy due to it's one piece curved windshield.

Attached is a photo of the division window from my 1956 Cadillac Limousine. Due to the uneven reflections you can see the curve in it and also how it was "arched" at the top to fit the roof line when fully extended. Also attached is the scissors action lift mechanism, all of which was secured to the steel bulkhead partition that divided the Chauffeur's front seat area from the rear "salon". This partition reveals damage to the lower right glass quadrant, which necessitated my changing it out with an undamaged specimen that I removed from a parts car.

Clay/Lexi