1939 Cadillac Convertible Sedan #23 of 36 Built

[Mike Baillargeon #15848]

Thanks Guys.....I'm going to try torch and vice grip route....I'm hoping these cast iron manifolds are hardy because I'm afraid of breaking off the ears where the studs are.....

LoL.....Harry the vent that sits down at the bottom of the valley pan had at least 10 acorns packed in there....I kept blowing air in there and they kept flying out!!

Mike

[Mike Baillargeon #15848]

Good news!....The torch and vise grips worked.....go high heat and rock back and forth and out they came.

Mike

[Mike Baillargeon #15848]

We are in it now!......Valley pans are up and out...wow lots of gunk....took awhile to clean that out....

Looking around in there I found another piece of the lifter that broke off.

Dave Z was right on, it looks like an end lifter holder broke off...probably caused by a stuck valve slamming into a rotating cam....Cylinder # 8 is the culprit....Picture #3744 shows the missing valve holder...

Next step is to take that broken lifter holder out....in my pictures, the cam lobes are all down so I can pull that whole unit out of there....

Looking at the other pictures shows 3 or 4 other valves are stuck....but they must have gotten stuck in the open position and the cam flying by didn't have enough power to break them....

Tomorrow I'm going to also lift the car up so I can take a peak from underneath and look for other damage...ie lifters, other shrapnel that fell when I was cleaning...etc....

Can somebody chime in and tell me how does the cam look...new?..old?...ok?...I'm not that familiar and I don't know what it's suppose to look like....

The last thing for now, is those stuck valves...I really don't want to take the heads off...so how I do I unstick the valves??...The 331 Cadillac motors were easier to get those valves moving again....tapping the spring and getting the PB Blaster down the valve stems....

Thanks to everybody...

Mike

[Mike Baillargeon #15848]

I got a lota mo pictures...

In picture #3749 this cylinder #1s exhaust valve stuck in an open position....We have to unstick this one and a couple of others...how??

Mike

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Talk about gunk.   What a mess.

But, the heads will have to come off to remove the valves.

Plus, it will give you a chance to belt the valves that are stuck open, closed.

I have never worked on a Side Valve Cadillac, but if the valves are stuck open, you might even be able to try twisting the stuck valves by grabbing the mushroom part of the valves with pipe wrenches and apply pressure sideways, as you are tapping them, whilst using lubricant on the guides.

Bruce.

[James Landi]

Bruce,

No surprise about the gunk -- having opened several old Cadillacs and other motors over the years that don't have PVC, there's a good deal of "rain water" that falls into the engine from condensation every time the engine is started. One of the reasons I flinch when club members talk about garage starting their winter stored cars--- UGH!  The sludge build up is a horror to be expected.    Regarding your comment about the stuck valves, this can be tricky. I hope for his sake that he can figure out a way to attempt to un stick them by using "Blaster" and other rust penetrating oils.  Sometimes one can get them un stuck by hammering them down, but alas, sometimes they are REALLY stuck and they absolutely must be pulled up and out , and that's when  the three act opera begins.  I believe he said there were only two.   Maybe he'll be able to work them free, clean up and repair the valve valley, and take a favorable compression test.  Sometimes good things happen to nice guys -- let's all hope he gets lucky.  James 

[harry s]

The gunk encountered is pretty typical of what you run into. Nice job cleaning it up Mike. To address a couple things, there is a specification for the cam lobes in the shop manual assuming they have no scoring it should be good to go. It is hard to tell from the photo but the bronze idler gear at the rear driver's side looks to have significant wear.
Once you remove the lifter blocks you can remove the valve springs. When removing be careful there are spacers at the top that will probably be stuck to the block. For the stuck valves you may be able to use some sort of spreader to get a little movement out of them. I also think you are going to have to remove the heads if not just to free and lap the valves along with checking the cylinder bores. Once you've gone that far and having the engine out you may as well do a hot tank along with the bearings and rings (bet some of those are broken). As far as removing the heads, you probably already know this but I have found it best to use an impact on the head bolts being very careful to first loosen a little then tighten a little then  back and forth. Hopefully they will come out without breaking, except for the last one of course (lol).   Harry

[Mike Baillargeon #15848]

Thanks guys for the encouragement!.....I took that valve holder out and that was it, the exhaust valve for #8 was & is stuck in a closed position....
cam came around and broke off the piece of the holder sending the lifter flying....(see first 2 pictures)

Here's where the 3 act opera starts to take shape.....I looked more closely for more damage besides the lifter holder.....sure enough that cam lobe has what looks like cracks on either side.....(see pictures 3 & 4)....Your right Harry I also saw the wear on the cam sprocket.....these cracks definitely mean the cam has to be changed.....I've never done one, so more learning is coming.....

No matter what, some valves are stuck....heads have to come off...the ones I see that are stuck are mostly open except for the really damaged one with is closed....

Guys, would a big C-Clamp work pushing a valve open from the bottom, adding PB Blaster and then hammering it back down??....then repeating that process over and over??

Harry, that's what I did to get the passenger side head off today....impact gun, back and forth with tightening then backing out....worked well except for the very last one...I thought it's really hitting the fan now here comes the broken bolt.....but then it gave way and came out in one piece...yeeaa!!!

Check out the picture of the passenger side head off.....head gasket looks broken between 6 & 8 cylinders....2 & 4 cylinders look pretty grimy......maybe just crap that fell in from mice or my witches brew??

Guys going forward assume that I know nothing, because I don't, things that are common knowledge to you is brand new information to me....I would never tackle this without the expertise that you guys can share here....It's kinda nice that the numbers on the motor match the chassis...because if it were left up to me, I'd pull this motor and drop in another one.....that's easy....

Mike

[Mike Baillargeon #15848]

I'm eyeballing that cam lobe again on screen with the zoom feature...maybe those marks on the lobe are just where the lobe hit the side of the lifter....no cracks, just indentations.....could we get away with leaving it there??

Mike

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Funny thing with that scouring is that it could be possible to use the cam as it is simply because the width of the cam follower will not come into side contact with the marking, and it could also be that any oil that gets into that groove could act as a lubricant, thus assisting the smooth transition of the follower over the groove.

BUT, having said the above, and many will think I am stupid, in the past, many people have still used parts that should have been replaced, and they have survived, just because they were lucky, or it actually worked.   When one is stuck between a rock and a hard place, one has to do what one has to do to get by.

Me, I would be replacing the Cam as one would always have that part in the back of ones' mind when driving.

Bruce.

[Terry Wenger]

Mike:

Check each cam lobe with a calipers and see if the the lift is correct. If one has too much wear on the lobe where it won't raise the valve  all the way, its time for a new cam.

Terry

[James Landi]

Mike,

Looks like the third act of the opera will feature a deep dive into  "the might as wells."   Part of that would involve checking out the integrity of the block... What follows from me are some musings on disappointments, so my suggestion is to focus in on this topic with others who are more experienced and have more expertise.
Will the block hold water?  This is a relatively simple test...  filling the water jackets with water and making sure the level that you filled does not leak down.    I've experienced cracked blocks on several occasions--all were caused by dumb owners who didn[t put in antifreeze, and those leaks are usually easy to detect and the water flows.  Cracks in the combustion chambers require some additional expertise and an expert "eye."  Alas, usually these occur in the most critical and dare I say fragile part of the areas between valve seats and among cylinder walls.  I suspect there are many following your efforts who can respond if you provide some "close ups" of areas you've carefully cleaned,(viz: haven't scratched) on those exposed surfaces.  James

[Mike Baillargeon #15848]

Thanks guys!...I have much work ahead of me...

I was able to take, now both heads off the motor....no broken bolts!....just one stubborn one on each side...

You really now have a front row seat to watch the pistons and valves working.....It looks like all the pistons are moving just fine.....The valves are a different story....A combo of the mice setting up camp and exhaust open to the atmosphere.....

Looks like 6 of the 8 exhaust valves are stuck or sticking....I'd say 4 are moving a small amount and 2 are really stuck......5 out of the 6 are stuck in a mostly up position....the one that's locked up is all the way down......all the intake valves are moving pretty good from what I can tell...

I can tap the valves down but coming back up is tough...there isn't any room to swing a hammer with force.....I have to get them moving....

The only leverage getting those valves to travel back up is with the cam by rotating the crank.....I'm going to only work one valve 4 pack at a time so I'm not battling other stuck exhaust valves at the same time....So that means only one valve 4-pack in the motor at a time until all 4 of those are moving nicely.....

The scary one is the one that did the damage....it's really stuck down....

Looks like a slow process of tapping, twisting, rotating the crank and plenty of PB Blaster to fill the ports so I can get it on the valve stems...

I'll report back but, this has a couple of weeks written all over it....

Mike

[Tom Boehm]

Hello Mike, I like this car and I like this thread. What are your plans? Are you trying to get the car driveable without an engine overhaul? Are you intending to restore the car? What are you going to do about the missing top? I've had my Lasalle for over 20 years but I am still learning from threads like these.

[Mike Baillargeon #15848]

Hi Tom,....I like the car too...I guess at this point I'm not thinking that far ahead.....Usually the car I buy, I get the motor unstuck and move on to the next system ie...brakes, exhaust, tune-up, wheel bearings etc....

My goal with this car was kinda the same thing, get it running, moving and stopping and then move on to the cosmetics within reason of a small budget.....The missing convertible top frame is going to be tough to find...that said, I'm running out of room to store my cars so if this one takes a little longer to do, that will be a good thing....

But being into the motor this far....like somebody said here earlier is well... "while I'm here I should also do this"....That makes cents but that's how you blow though what is a reasonable amount of money that should be spent on a pre-war car.....or a post war car for that matter....

I have located a convertible top frame from the same era but, it ain't cheap and will need some re-fabricating to make it work....I'm still hoping I find the correct top for the car but, that might take a very long time....

Bottom line is I like wrenching on old Cadillac's and getting them to be nice drivers....I'll leave the really high end restorations to the guys who can really afford to do it.....I'm better at staying in my own lane...

Mike

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

I can tap the valves down but coming back up is tough...there isn't any room to swing a hammer with force.....I have to get them moving....   Mike   

Mike,

What you need is a slide hammer, with an attachment like I made to get into an impossible location.

As you can see, the second largest one has a threaded end, which I used to make a couple of fittings to fit the threaded shaft.   Notice that the off-set adapter has been modified again to fit another problem I had.

With the really large one, one has to be careful to keep the holding hand clear of the "striker".

Bruce.

[Mike Baillargeon #15848]

Mike,

What you need is a slide hammer, with an attachment like I made to get into an impossible location.

As you can see, the second largest one has a threaded end, which I used to make a couple of fittings to fit the threaded shaft.   Notice that the off-set adapter has been modified again to fit another problem I had.

With the really large one, one has to be careful to keep the holding hand clear of the "striker".

Bruce.

Bruce now that's a good idea!.....I looked at your slide hammer and I remembered my dad left me one.....

He was a 30 plus year retired machine repair mechanic for a large jet engine maker here in New England...he left me all kinds of tool boxes loaded with stuff I'll never figure out how to use....

Well I found his slide hammer and I went looking for an old broken C-clamp in the scrap metal pile....I only found the wrong side of the clamp so maybe a decent one will have to be modified......

I don't want to destroy the valve by snapping but, just get it moving so I can start the movement going into both directions....

I think I have a good start with your good idea...

Thanks,   Mike

[DaveZ]

Mike,
At this point you should be very happy:-) Usually at least one broken head bolt:-( Harry is spot on. If it were me, and I only say this because I am a wee bit anal about things, I would take the engine out. Only because I'm lazy and don't like to do things twice:-)  If you take it out you can have the block cleaned and tested for cracks. That is the point you will know what you can do.When you get it back take a power washer and make an adapter out of copper tubing that can reach down the the head bolt holes. Even after a tank cleaning you will be surprised at the amount of crud that will blow out. The cam should have no marks scores chips in it. The front cam bearing is usually the first to go and when it does you lose oil to the top end, noisy lifters. At the least just because it is apart I would put new cam shaft bearings in too. Not expensive. If there is enough margin left on the valves you can re seat them. When you do you need to measure form the cam lobe to the end of the valve stem. Must be 3 inches exact.  Clean the lifters, oil pipe feeds and internal feed to the pipes.  There will be more you will need to know / do, but at the end of the day it is your choice.  You are on a great start!

[Mike Baillargeon #15848]

The 3 act opera continues.....

I had a friend come over and give me his opinion about my motor.

He works for a local machine shop that builds race motors...so he has no investment in getting my motor to rebuild.

He said the valves are the real problem....lots would have to be done to get the seats right, the rust is bad....we both saw a cracked piston....another cylinder has to be sleeved...he pointed out how the bad sticky valves had to be sticking for a long time because some of the cam lobes were round and others were pointy...

I pounded out 2 valves after cutting them up to push them down toward the cam.....that was before he showed up with all the bad news....I'm going to give up on this motor...I'll keep it on the shelf in case the next guy that buys the car wants the matching motor...

I'm going to be looking for a good running 346...

Mike

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

What a shame.

Sometimes one just has to toss out something that is not worth working on, and realistically, that engine block looks like one of those things that is beyond, not only economical repair but actual repair, as being a basic engine, you should be able to find a replacement, even if the replacement requires a total rebuild.

Bruce.

PS.  In this case, the slide hammer probably would not have been enough to get the valves free.