Any years ZDDP in oil

[Cadman-iac]

  This topic has come up a lot recently, and I'm just curious, how does Mobil 1 rank in this? Does it also have any ZDDP in it, or does it provide protection because it's strictly synthetic?
 I ask because I've been using it in several vehicles for years, one was a 1981 Malibu that I put a 350 small block in and I've put over 400k miles on the engine without any issues.
 Would this oil work for older vehicles to protect a flat tappet cam if the engine has just been rebuilt? Would you recommend using this oil in an old engine?
 I know it has a tendency to leak past seals and gaskets easier than a regular petroleum based oil, but that is the only drawback that I can see to using Mobil 1.


   Rick
 

[64\/54Cadillacking]

Hey Rick,

I think Mobil 1 has reduced its ZDDP content in their oils lately. The one that supposedly has a good amount of ZDDP in it is their 0W-40 European formulated oil.

There's a guy on YouTube called "Ford Boss Me" that has done oil analysis on all kinds of different oils, and he says that one of the best full-synthetic oils on the market today to use is Valvoline Extended Performance and Ultra Pennzoil Platinum. Much better oil specs than Mobil 1. It has higher amounts of ZDDP than Mobil 1, specifically Valvoline.

I have personally used Castrol Classic 20W-50 oil in all of my classic rides. Since I live in CA, the temperatures never get freezing cold unless one lives way out in the mountains during the winter season. So the high viscosity doesn't bother the engines. It has very high ZDDP additives in it from what I read up on and only cost like $25 on Amazon.

[Cape Cod Fleetwood]

Lucas "Hot Rod Oil" has the highest amount of zinc in ANY commercially available oil.
Go ahead, <RESEARCH>


After Reid's rebuilt my engine, Jimmy Reid said to use 'Driven HR4' for ever and ever Amen - after - engine
break in. And WIX filters, only WIX filters. Everybody has THE PRODUCT that lets them sleep at night, that's
terrific. This is from the guy who's been building engines for nitro, street and classics for over 50 years.
YMMV

[64\/54Cadillacking]

I second Laurie's comments, I've used Lucas Hot Rod oil as well. Really high ZDDP content and you can get it in different flavors instead of 20W-50.

[Cadman-iac]

  Thanks for the replies, I appreciate it.
The Lucas oil, is that a synthetic oil or regular oil?
I like the fact that you can run a synthetic oil longer than a regular oil.
I typically go 5000 miles between oil changes with Mobil 1, and 2500 miles on regular oil. I know they say the synthetic will last longer, but I prefer to be safe.
I use Shell Rotella T 15w40 for my trucks since they use a little bit by burning it and leaking it, and Mobil 1 costs too much to flush through that fast. Rotella is supposed to have a high ZDDP content for diesels, and I've been really happy with it so far.
  I've used Wix filters exclusively on everything since 1984 when I started working for Napa. We had a display with different brand filters cut open to show what they were made of, and it was obvious that the Wix filters were the best.
The only one that I've seen that would compare was one made by Hastings, but I don't know if they even make those anymore. I used to use them when I was in high school.
I'm trying to figure out what oil to use in my 472 after it's broke in, if and when I get to that point.
I had been planning on using Mobil 1, since I've had good luck with it so far, but everything I've used it in has already been broken in using regular oil first. But from what I've been reading lately I'm not sure anymore.
I only want to do this job once, since it's not  real easy for me to physically do this kind of work any more due to health issues, so I want to be sure about what oil I run in it after breaking it in.
Thanks again for your replies.

Rick

[64\/54Cadillacking]

Rick, I believe the Lucas Hot Rod oil is a conventional oil including the Castrol Classic. The conventional oils today I am sure are much better than what was made even from 10 years ago. So I wouldn't hesitate to use them in your Cad.

Wix still makes great filters. As you know all the Napa filters are made by Wix and it's the best ones to buy at the moment as far as canister filters go. I also used to work at Napa and O'Reilly's Auto parts many years ago. I took advantage of the half off employee discounts and bought a ton of parts for my cars when I was still there.

Personally I've tried using O'Reilly's house brand Microguard extended performance oil filters, and I have to say, they are built stronger than the equivalent Wix filter and they are cheaper as well. I believe they are made in S.Korea, but have a nice plastic film cover over the filter opening to protect it from dirt and dust.

If you can find a Purolator Boss oil filter and even a Royal Purple version, they are probably the highest quality filters you can buy today. Both are made by Champion. I'm not sure if they make them for the old canister style filters that are in our 50's Cads, but for my '64 Cad and my Lincoln's, I've used the other brands and they are superior.

[EAM 17806]

I second Laurie's comments, I've used Lucas Hot Rod oil as well. Really high ZDDP content and you can get it in different flavors instead of 20W-50.

Wouldn't you consider "Valvoline VR-1" to be one of the best motor oils with ZDDP?    EAM 17806

[Chopper1942]

Mobil 1 15-50 has 1320 ppm zinc and 1200 ppm phosphorus. It is recommended by Mobil for use in flat tappet engines. This is the highest zinc and phosphorus levels I found published in various oil data sheets without going to a racing oil, which is usually not recommended to be used on the streets.

Valvoline VR-1 is a racing oil and it has 1400 ppm zinc and 1300 ppm phosphorus.

You can go on the various oil companies web sites and check their data sheets for the zinc & phosphorus content.

[Cadman-iac]

  Well I've just found out that the Lucas heavy duty oil stabilizer I've been using in my truck doesn't appear to have any ZDDP in it.
They do make an additive for breaking in New engines with ZDDP, but I'll probably have to order it. I've been getting the oil stabilizer at Walmart, but I don't recall seeing the break-in additive there.

As for the type of oil filter I'm using, the 472 uses a spin-on filter, so it will be a Wix most likely.
I am not positive about this, but I think I saw on a Wix box that the filter was made in China, so I'm going out and looking at the boxes again to verify that. If that's the case, I'll be switching to another brand. I am not supporting anything made in China, period.

Just looked at the filters I keep on hand, and just a word of advice, check the filter itself for the country of origin. The box does not tell you anything.
I keep 2 different oil filters in stock, one for my Chevys, and one for the wife's Buick. The Chevy filter, a 1060, is made here, the Buick filter, a 1036, is made in Mexico, which isn't a problem.
But the fuel filter for the Buick is made in China. It's a Pro-select 23311 Napa filter, and I'm not sure if that's supposed to be their good one or not, but I'm not happy. That's why it's still sitting on the shelf instead of being on the car.
I thought that when you bought a name brand product like this from Napa, that you were getting a quality product, because I paid a quality price for it. Just proves that greed reaches every company. But enough on that.

Apparently Mobil 1 15w50, which is what I use, has about 1850 PPM of ZDDP in it, whereas the Lucas Hot Rod Oil has 3130 PPM from what I've been able to find online according to Speedway motors i think it is. And it depends on where you look as to what you find. Some places list one thing for a given oil, and another shows something else.
The Mobil 1 site is not very forthcoming with information on how much ZDDP is in their oils.
The Lucas break-in oil shows to have 4000 PPM, which is really good.
I saw somewhere that the maximum amount of ZDDP you would want is something like 5000 PPM, but now I don't remember where I saw that.
Thanks for suggesting I do some research on this. Honestly it never crossed my mind that I could find out anything like this before.



So I'm guessing that the amount of ZDDP additive in any given oil is dependent upon what the market is wanting at any given time, because I've found that the amounts vary depending upon which site or which person was doing the testing and when it was done.
The lesson I've learned is to check often for the most recent study and hope you make the right choice.
It looks like I'll be probably going with the Lucas break-in oil to begin with, and I'll figure out what to use after that when I get that far.
It's too bad that there isn't a standard chart for this kind of thing that you can refer to and that is kept up-to-date every month or 6 months.
It looks like a lot of information is biased depending upon who is researching it or who is providing it.
And none of the sites are really very user-friendly, especially the Mobil 1 site.

Thank you all for your input and suggestions, it's been very helpful and insightful, and I do appreciate it.

Rick

[Chopper1942]

If you go to the Mobil 1 web site and select Mobil 1™ 5W-30 Advanced Full Synthetic Engine Oil, there is a link on the right side of the page there is a zinc and phosphorus level link. This gives the specs for all Mobil 1 oils.

I don't know about now, but in the past, all most all the filters were manufactured in Gastonia, NC. I have toured the plant and watched them make filters. I have cut oped and inspected many brands of filters and when cut open and compared, you won't find any that are better constructed than the Wix.

[35-709]

I use Mobil 1 15w-50 in all my flat tappet engines, new or old, 472s, 350 Chevy, 460 Ford, '68 Pontiac 400, '50 Packard straight 8, etc.  As noted above it has  just the right amount of ZDDP, different viscosities of Mobil 1 have different levels of ZDDP, do not assume Mobil 1 oils are the same across the board.  It is entirely possible to use too much ZDDP,  too much can be as dangerous as too little.  I would never use an oil with 5000 ZDDP --- except under the advice of my doctor and a prescription.     Do not just throw a small can of ZDDP in the crankcase without knowing what is in the oil you are using itself and how much total you are going to end up with "just to be on the safe side".
As to WIX filters, the NAPA Gold and Platinum oil filters are made by WIX and are all I use, I do not believe their less expensive filters are, might be worth checking. 

[Daryl Chesterman]

If you want to know who makes what brand of oil filters, the following website lists all of them.  It is really interesting to see who the major manufacturers are and what brands they are making!!!!!

     https://tiremeetsroad.com/2021/12/21/which-oil-filters-are-made-in-the-united-states/

[Cadman-iac]

If you want to know who makes what brand of oil filters, the following website lists all of them.  It is really interesting to see who the major manufacturers are and what brands they are making!!!!!

     https://tiremeetsroad.com/2021/12/21/which-oil-filters-are-made-in-the-united-states/

 Daryl,
 This link doesn't seem to be working correctly. I can go to the site, but it only gives a brief overview, when you get to the bottom, there is a button to expand it, but it doesn't work.
 The video is just a Fram promotional tool, it doesn't mention any other manufacturer.
 Can you post the list maybe, or find a different link for it. I'd like to look at it if possible.
 Thanks for posting.

 Rick

[Cadman-iac]

  Here are some more specs I found for some of the different oils mentioned.











 Some of these oil manufacturers have cut back on the amount of ZDDP in their oils because of how it effects catalytic converters and diesel exhaust filters according to one of these sites.
 I also read that oil has a shelf life, which I've never heard of before. It was mentioned on a Corvette site that was listing the ZDDP amounts a few years ago.
 Has anyone else ever heard of this shelf life on oil?
 It was even mentioned on Mobil 1 site if I remember it correctly. Something like 6 years from date of production. Just what the hell goes bad in a sealed jug of oil over time?
 It sounds like just another way to trick people into buying new oil instead of stocking up and saving when they have a sale.
 Who knows what the truth is anymore. You would have to be a scientist to know and understand what to believe since you can't trust these companies to be honest with the public. Profits are king and whatever it takes to get people to buy the hype and the product is fair game to boost their bottom line and increase their bonuses.
 From trying to make an informed decision about what oil to use, the only thing that I've determined is that you can find something to support any number of products as being the "best" one, you just have to look in the right place. If you don't like what a particular site says, just find another one.

 Is there really any independent research facility that can honestly look at this issue and report their findings without bias? I don't think there is. Maybe I'm being too naive here, I don't know. Does anybody know of such a place?

 Rick

[Cadman-iac]

  I've read that too much ZDDP is just as bad as not enough. Apparently too much will cause acidity in the crankcase and will erode the bearings.
But just how much is too much? Is it 4000 PPM? 5000 PPM? I haven't seen anything on what the upper limit would be. I don't want to wind up causing one problem while trying to prevent another.
At least we here on this forum don't need to worry about catalytic converters and diesel exhaust filters on these old beasts. But wouldn't it be great if you could just go to a trusted source and find out what you want to know about the best way to protect your old engines from excessive wear, premature wear?
Wasn't the consumer protection agency supposed to be doing this sort of thing? What exactly do they do anyway?
I've read that the Consumer Reports  magazine can't be trusted because they are biased towards whichever company "supports" their "research".
 I don't know if they would even look at something like this, it's probably too technical for them.

[64\/54Cadillacking]

Rick,

Here's a great YouTube Channel to get some insight on everything about engine oil. This guy is a lubrication professional and does all kinds of wear test on oils.

He did a 20W-50 Castrol Classic vs Castrol GTX wear test on the video link below, and said because the Castrol Classic had about 50% more ZDDP and detergents in the oil over the GTX version, the iron wear levels were much lower than the GTX at 80ppm for the GTX, and 30ppm for the Castrol Classic.

So it's not always about having higher levels of ZDDP he states, but also having a right balance of detergents as well. But definitely ZDDP helps reduce wear on old and new engines, it's still the best anti-wear additive on the market but it ruins Catalytic converters in all the new stuff unfortunately because I wish I could pour a bottle of ZDDP in my modern Lexus.

I highly recommend just checking out different videos of his, I think he has one for the Mobil 1 15W-50 and Valvoline VR1 oils. He does wear test on them I believe.

As far as oil filters go, I have noticed lately that Wix has been making more and more of their filters in China and other countries now. I remember when all Wix/Napa Gold filters were made in the U.S., but they did get bought out by Mann+Hummel group which is a good company, but I do think for them to save on cost, they have been offshoring more and more of their filters. I think I saw one made in either Indonesia or Vietnam while checking on filter's at an O'Reilly's one day and I was freaking shocked to see that!

Companies keep going to more 3rd world, dirt poor countries to make everything now, which includes Vietnam. Eventually they soon will run out of cheap labor once all those countries increase their wealth by all this American and European investment.

China is hemorrhaging companies and manufacturing at an astonishing rate recently since so many companies are leaving to make products now in India and elsewhere. I mean shoot, I think all the new IPhones or the majority of them now that are being made, Apple has switched from making them in China, to India this year. Cost was one thing, but it was always because of the CCP lockdowns China kept implementing last year that affected IPhone production and caused serious delays.




https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7AJ_DO5zfVE&pp=ygUOc3BlZWRpYWdub3N0aXg%3D

[Chopper1942]

Back in the day, the 70's, when there were a lot of camshaft failures, GM required that EOS (Engine Oil Supplement) be put on the camshafts and lifters when being installed and the rest of the pint can poured into the crankcase with the new oil. Then, EOS was thick as STP and would hardly pour out of the can so it was a great assembly lube and would not run off the parts if not installed and started for quite awile.

EOS had an extremely high content of zinc and phorphorus. They stated not to add more when you changed oil at 3k miles, because it would create deposits on the valves, in the compustion chambers, and on the piston top, which would lead to preignition and detonation. So yes, to much is not a good thing.

Racing engine operate under completely different conditions than a street engine. Racing oils are foumulated for the type of racing and in some cases even the engine it is being used in. Also,remember that a race engine is frequently torn down and refreshed. Often after each race and sometimes after every run.

Racing oils are great for their application, but they don't have the additive package to last and protect your engine for the type of driving we do on the street.

You can use whatever you like for a brand of oil and install an additive, or you can buy an oil with the additive already in it. There are many great oils there. Your choice is either full synthetic, blend, or conventional paraffin base stock.

My personal choice for street use in my vehicles with a flat tappet cam is Mobil 1 15w-50, because it is an oil designed for street use and has the highest levels of zinc, phosporus, and ZDDP for steet driven vehicles and catalytic converters. My street vehicles, all newer and with CATS, have either Mobil 1 5w-20 or Mobil 1 High Mileage 10w-30. I used to use different brands for different applications, but settled on Mobil 1 for the cost, convienence, and availability.

I am old fashoned. I still change my oil and filter between 3000 to 4000 miles no matter what the vehicles oil monitor says I have left.

Oh by the way, in my '73 Chevy 3/4 ton crew cab with a CAT 3208 636 cu.in. diesel, I use Shell Rotella 15s-40 oil and I change it at 4000 miles, 16 qts and 2 oil filters.

[LaSalle5019]

I use whatever is on sale and meets the latest API ratings in all my vintage cars from 1921-1968. I also change my oil fairly often (no filters on several old cars) and recycle the old stuff.

Yeah, I'm an engineer type and did all the research during my 30 years at GM using a data based approach based on all the work the SAE did when ZDDP levels were adjusted to meet emissions requirements. A lot of testing and many papers written. I also had the opportunity to talk directly with the oil experts at GM doing the work. It is pretty interesting and didn't just involve the zinc and phosphorous levels but also how the changes in dispersant (some refer to as detergent) packages also allowed for reduced levels without affecting wear. I didn't fall for the sales tactics from all the companies that want to sell you something that continues to get shared across forums like this. Instead I used the actual data and expert opinions from the people that make the engines.

Saved me a bunch of money I would rather spend elsewhere but to each their own.

You aren't going to do any harm by buying specialty oils - perfectly fine if you choose to do so. I strongly suggest though that you do not use ZDDP additives as you then become the chemist and have no idea how much zinc and phosphorus your oil actually contains. Testing showed that too much caused bearing spalling - and by too much I'm talking about 25% more than formulated oils. So, please just buy the formulated oil so you know what you are getting.

[Lexi]

Good advice on not being your own chemist. With respect to using oils formulated for older engines (so higher zinc for example), is it better in the long run to use them or not? Are the wear factors neglible from a classic car perspective? Clay/Lexi

[LaSalle5019]

Keep in mind that what we refer to as ZDDP was not a thing prior to WWII and was developed to address the higher performance engines developed for the war (primarily aviation engines) that went to higher compression ratios, higher lift cams, stronger valve springs and sometimes higher rpms. The loads on the flat tappet interface went up tremendously and required some additives to the oils to reduce the wear that was seen. Prewar engines didn't have that highly loaded sliding interface and the oils of the day provided the needed protection. Today's oils are far superior and have ZDDP in their formulation which provides protection for flat tappet cams in post war engines with that higher loading. All of the SAE testing showed that the reduced levels in today's oil is still enough to protect modern flat tappet engines. Really high performance race engines do require a bit higher level although most of them run roller cam followers so it's a moot point.

If you want to argue that your built 1966 GTO with 11:1 compression needs a higher level of ZDDP than standard oils meeting API requirements (which all still have ZDDP) fine - I wouldn't argue. But to suggest that my 1939 LaSalle need specially formulated oils in it isn't even worth discussing. It's just not true.

Again, they won't cause any issues but why buy something you don't need?