1960s No tension on brake shoe retracting spring

[Julien Abrahams]

Hey guys,

Working on the '66 Eldorado. Made new brake lines and today I went to install the new wheel cylinders and brake shoes.
Wheel cylinders went on OK after some adjusting/bending the new brake lines to fit.
When I installed the new brake shoes on the driver side I ran into a problem. After installing everything I have no tension on the yellow shoe retracting spring. I am a bit stumped...the bottom spring was pretty hard to get on.
What am I doing wrong? I made pictures when I took the old shoes off and there was indeed tension on both retracting springs.
Any help is appreciated.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

That spring looks like it has been stretched by the look of the separation of the coils at each end.

One thing to check is to see that the holes in the replaced shoes are in the same place as in the replacement shoe.

Bruce.

["Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364]

I may be wrong but I don't see the botom adjuster and the spring that keeps the bottom of the shos on the pivot pin?
Greg Surfas

[TJ Hopland]

Is that parking brake bar correct?  I have not seen one with the bend at the left before and it looks like that spring is hitting it.   Are those springs swapped and in the wrong holes?

[tluke]

Post the before picture you mentioned you took and let's see if fresh eyes can see something different that you can't.

Bruce is right, the yellow spring looks stretched out. Each coil on the spring should be tight up against the next with no space between them. That said, from the picture it doesn't appear to be stretched enough to have no tension (technically negative tension). On my cars (50s) stretching those springs to install them on the anchor takes a lot of muscle power. If it's too easy, they need to be replaced. It's always safer to replace the springs when you replace the shoes. If the spring doesn't have enough tension, the shoes will not retract from the drum and the result is a lot of heat and loss of braking. Living in the Rockies I can tell you going down a mountain road with hot brakes is going down with NO brakes!

From the pic I attached  of a '67 Eldo it looks correct (the pic is the passenger side).  Like Greg I can't see the adjusting screw and star wheel on the bottom and the spring that pulls the bottom of the shoes towards each other, but they are likely there, just not visible in your picture (the spring should be on the top of the adjuster). Just check they are installed in the proper notch. Without them the top springs won't be tensioned. I don't have cars with automatic brake adjusters (that silver lever with the link up to the spring anchor that TJ mentioned) but based on my attached pic it looks correctly installed.

The various springs are different colors so I suspect that's important. Front has different color springs than the back. I have the shop manual text and color pics of the front brakes. Right side are different colors than left side (even on the hold down cups and star adjusters), more so in the front than the rear brakes I suspect. Someone may have the shop manual pages that explains the colors since my pic isn't in color. Your 'before' picture may also confirm correct color springs in correct positions.

So maybe just prying off the very old yellow spring was too much for it. I'd certainly buy new springs.


Remember to click to enlarge

[badpoints]

looks right

[Julien Abrahams]

Hey guys,
When I got home the other night, I also thought of the spring beiing stretched. The first try on putting the retracting springs back on I made the mistake of trying to hook the yellow spring to the pivot pin. That might have been too much for the original spring. This weekend I will compare this spring to the spring from the other side. If the spring is stretched, then that should show. Then I will buy new springs for each wheel. No point in replacing them for just one wheel.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Trying to get the spring onto the post could be fraught with danger, as without using the proper tool, there would be horrendous pressure involved.

But, doing that would also explain the stretching of the spring.

Do you have the correct tool?

This tool has saved countless injuries.   The tube with the tab on it goes over the anchor point, and the tab is twisted around to catch under the end of the spring and "lift" it clear of the Anchor point, allowing one to simply pull the tool clear, with the spring end with it.

The other end with the groove in it is for hooking over the anchor point, and with the spring end hooked over the shaft, the handle is levered up so the spring slips over the anchor point.

Bruce.

[Julien Abrahams]

Yes I do have the correct tool (brake spring pliers). I have bought that a last about a year ago and wished I had done sooner. Befre I would use regular pliers to get the springs on and off. Stupid. But as we get older, we learn .
I will let you guys know what I find over the weekend. The car is in storage on the other side of town which makes it less convenient to quickly check.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Of all the brakes I have done over the years, I have never had a use for the whole Plier tool.   The simple double ended tool always met my needs.

With just the single piece, there is nothing that could get in the way whilst operating the lever action.

Bruce.

[TJ Hopland]

The plier tools that are common around here include the ends your tool has.  I'm not actually sure how or what the pliers action part is supposed to do I just use the one end for twisting off the springs and another end for sliding them on. There seems to be slight variations to these things.  I have 2 different ones that differ slightly from the Lisle one below.  I usually grab them both and see which one fits best on what I am working on at the moment.

https://www.lislecorp.com/specialty-tools/brake-spring-pliers

[Daryl Chesterman]

Here is a You Tube video showing how the Lisle brake pliers can be used.

     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9f7hpI5JvyE

Daryl Chesterman

[TJ Hopland]

Neat.  It seemed like there had to be a reason for that end but I never saw anyone use it before.  The way I get that bottom spring on is to assemble the adjuster and that spring on the bench where you can just pivot the pads far enough that there isn't tension to deal with then I put them on the car with that bottom done.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Thanks for posting that video Daryl.

I now know why I never use the pliers part of the tool as I never use brake shoes with Rivets, and could not figure out how to use the tool.

Plus, when I was originally doing brakes, my cars were always so old that they never had self-adjusting brakes.  Could never afford newer cars with those modern flashy self-adjusting brakes. 

Plus, being the frugal type, I have never used Riveted brake linings on any of my cars, as have always used bonded ones.   Get twice the mileage from Bonded ones, with none of the destruction of drums caused by the grinding rivets as the linings wear down.

Bruce.

[TJ Hopland]

Ahhhh.... Rivets....   Maybe I did know at one time that was how it was supposed to work but never had to assemble a riveted set since?

[V63]

You might also verify the parking brake cable is fully relaxed? I notice that the rearward shoe is not resting on the center upper pivot. It is common for the E brake cables to corrode internally and inhibit action.



There are rub pads on the backing plate for the shoes to ride on that should be lubricated sparingly. If you look very closely they are dimpled to hold grease. This lubrication helps the shoes expand and contract properly.

[Julien Abrahams]

I will alao check the parking cable by simply disconnecting it. Good tip. And yes, I have sparsingly lubricated the spots on the backing plate that the shoes ride on with copper grease.

[Julien Abrahams]

Today I compared the springs from drivers and passengers side. Well, found the problem. Top is the one that previuously installed (wrongly) and bottom is the spring from the pass side. So drivers side spring is definitely stretched.
While I am at it I will.order a complete set (with all springs, pins etc.).
Thank you for the help!