The Real cost of operating an Electrical Vehicle (EV)

[59-in-pieces]

I suppose I'm like many here who have been bombarded in print and TV ads to stampede to buy an EV NOW, or we all, and the planet, are going to DIE.

There are all these temptations/incentives to buy - tax deductions - cash back/credits from the government/Dealers - money to build a charging station at your home, etc..

Looking from a different perspective, what is the real/actual cost - month to month - to operate an EV in your normal life's use.
Now, I'm hoping that folks who respond are those with an E-Cadillac, but any other make would serve to flesh out a good sample.
Please DO NOT just regurgitate the party line or the corporate or Government hype in their literature.
Unless, it would illustrate the difference between the Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) and an EV.

I'm a "SHOW ME" Missouri kinda guy, with a strong understanding that when you go to bed with the Government, you're not going to get a good night's sleep.

Have fun,
Steve B.

[Clewisiii]

I was an engineering benchmarking consultant.  We had switched to only tearing down and reviewing EVs. They were the only thing customers cared about recently.  I have torn apart.

Tesla Model S
Tesla Model 3
Tesla Model Y
Rivian R1T
Rivian R1S
Mustang Mach E
F150 Lightning
Vinfast VF8
Hummer EV
Hyundai Ionic
Lucid

Then some Hybrids.

The Insurance Institute of Highway safety had us rip the batteries out of ten Cars that were destroyed in hurricane flooding. They wanted to know what happened to the battery during the flood. Some of these cars still had mud and branches in the back seat. About half had battery damage. But less were actually dead.

I have driven
Tesla Model 3
Rivian R1T
Cadillac Lyriq
F150 Lightning
Mustang Mach E

Lots depends on how you drive. I drove the F150 from Auburn Hills Michigan to Wixom and back on back roads. I must drive better then the others who had driven it. Because at the end it only said I had used 10 miles of range.  We had 4 EVs  as company cars. And about six employees had their own EVs. The company put in 6 Level 2 chargers that were free for employee use. So most employees didn't even charge at home. Just at work. So that is not a fair comparison.
But driving the F150 from Detroit to Flint overnight and back did not require any charging.

I only know of one of the cars we ever worked with that had a problem. It was a Ford Mustang Mach E Test Vehicle that had catastrophic battery failure at 500 miles.

I am perfectly fine owning an EV. I do want one. I upgraded my electrical panel and ran a wire to my garage for a future Level 2 charger. My only fear/problem is that I drive a lot of miles. roughly 40,000 per year. My fear is battery replacement out of warranty. Because I will be out of warranty before I finish paying off the loan. The new batteries last longer then you would think. And most of those horror story battery cost estimates you see are for cars that do not have batteries currently being made.  So yes trying to keep an EV 20 years may be a problem until they come up with a standard battery that is backwards compatible. Which GM my be trying to do with the Ultium battery. But it is going to take a few model iterations for them to figure out the ideal build type and execution.

I do not believe the batteries we have today are the batteries we will have tomorrow. They are getting better all the time. We may be changing the amount of raw materials we need, we may be changing the type of materials.

People complain about materials and mining. My example is Aluminum. Aluminum does not occur naturally in nature. At one time Aluminum was more expensive then gold. Now it is the most recycled material. The battery material will be the same.

IF I was a person who only did 10,000 miles a year I would definitely own an EV today.

[Clewisiii]

One thing that will throw you off if you are not expecting it is automatic regenerative braking.

You can literally drive with just the accelerator pedal if you want. When you remove your foot it will automatically apply the brakes. But it isn't really the brakes. It engages a generator that pulls energy out of the rotating wheel to recharge the battery. You can adjust the sensitivity of this setting. I like to feel like I still coast a little bit with my foot off the accelerator.

I tried explaining this to my dad. Who is a nice man but not a bright man. He said why don't you just drive the front wheels then charge on back so you never have to charge. I tried to tell him it doesn't work that way without explaining the law of conversation of energy.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Are we comparing apples to apples new cars of identical cost and owned for identical duration? Then depreciation has to be factored in. Many ICEs can be made to last almost indefinitely but there are costs to maintain them. EVs need comparatively little by way traditional maintenance but battery life is limited to around 10 years maximum. When replacement of an EV battery is needed, expect cost of $10,000 to $15,000 and up to $25,000 in some cases, in other words, far more than the cost of regular ICE maintenance or even replacing the engine.

The greenest car is the one that had already been built (ie a used car), and is usually by far cheapest over the duration of ownership. A brand new EV will never come close in terms of cost per mile or per year and certainly not for the environment. 

CLC member friend drove his 200X Lincoln Town Car 447,000 miles without any major repairs. Talk about "planet-saving!" Find me an EV can do that.

[Clewisiii]

I currently pay about $70 a week in gas. That is little over $3500 a year. So in three years I can break even if I need a new battery.

Now that is not everything. I still would need to pay for electricity. Which is a lot less then gas at a home level 2 overnight charge rate.

But then I also would need to pay for engine maintenance on a gas car. Which with my miles is $200 a year for oil changes alone. So another $600 at three years. My Cadillac XTS needed a new trans at 56,000 miles at $3000. Not under warranty. But the second trans went for 200,000 miles so both are a gamble if something drastic is an issue.

[Clewisiii]

One argument that is made is that you would need to change tires more often due to weight.

I don't know if that is really true. Depends on the tire and driving style.

My Ford Focus was the worst. I had to change tires every 36-40,000 miles. My XTS only needed three sets of tires in 250,000 miles.

We test the drive and steering systems for electric vehicles with multiple size and styles of tires. Now I am not measuring tire longevity. But instead how does the cars drive and steering control systems react to the different tires installed. I cannot show pictures of the test vehicles since they are not Cadillacs. But here is my tire pile. We have several styles of tests and rigs that we will use to measure how these perform.

[Lexi]

While I am not a bandwagon jumper in general, especially EV stuff, but this YouTube video if true is genuinely disturbing for all motorists. While not Cadillac, there is a parallel there due to the shift to EV automobile production. The new technology may drive a wedge between the consumer and some automotive repair shops, especially small local ones. Seems like EV automobile owners may normally be at the mercy of dealerships for some repairs. And what if they provide a mis-diagnosis (or worse, a fraudulent one)? If true this video is certainly disturbing. Basically: 1) replace your allegedly damaged EV battery at $60,000 plus, (CAD funds), on a $55,000 near new automobile...and apparently nothing wrong with the battery., (just the roadside shield lightly scraped). Still pondering this one. Clay/Lexi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dr3mFzh0KSk

[Clewisiii]

Now before I bought my current car. I was seriously looking at EVs. I almost put a deposit down.

But in calculating my costs there was one thing that stopped me.

Insurance rates.

The rate would be near double what I was currently paying. And I think a lot of that is due to fear of costs on the part of the insurance companies.

Tesla started their own insurance program that was a lot cheaper. But it is not available in Michigan yet. So I could not go for that.

[PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192]

I recently crossed the English Channel to France and back on the car ferry. On the return journey, whilst booking in I noticed a sign that said all EVs and Hybrids must be brought to the ferry operator's attention. I asked why and was told that they had to be loaded in a safe area because the self ignite and the fires can't be put out. I'm guessing the safe area is on the outside at the front of the loading area where they can be dumped in the drink should they catch fire.

[James Landi]

Carl,

Thank you for weighing in on your professional, scientific observations as well as your informed personal opinions. And I'm grateful to Steve B. for bringing up the topic.  There are so many cynical folks who've made a living spreading false information about an initiative that comprises less than 5% of the cars in service today.  I appreciate Carl's effort to drill down, not only on the rigorous testing and results, but also his cautionary approach to purchasing an all electric car. I especially appreciate his thinking regarding future engineering innovation and refinement.  There was a time in America when we celebrated innovation and advanced technology, and Carl's comprehensive response is cautiously optimistic.  I really like that kind of informed thinking.  Gratefully, James   

[TJ Hopland]

I have not looked at every brand but the few I sort of looked at had a pretty long battery warranty so there are not very many of these cars out in the real world that are out of their battery warranty.  So for a 8 year warranty the 2015 models are now coming out of warranty and 2015 was about the time we started seeing EV's in significant numbers so its around now that there are getting to be lots of out of battery warranty cars out there. 

There are already companies doing repairs and rebuilds on the packs for the brands and models that have been around long enough and in great enough numbers to create a demand.  Where these fall in the whole legal and liability department is still a moving target with right to repair and other complications like insurance but it seems likely that there will be options to repair or replace a battery for less than the current MSRP from the OE brand. 

From what I have seen outright failures are not very common.  What does happen is degradation and that seems all over the map depending on many factors.  How does it effect the utility of the car?  Just like everything else maybe its not the right car for you anymore but it could be perfect for someone else.  Maybe you need 120 miles of range for your daily commute and after 5 years it will only do 100.  For sure doesn't make sense to buy an OE battery for a 5+ year old car but maybe there is the person out there that only has a 30 mile commute and previously could only afford a low end car but your higher end used car that has 100 mile range still left in it would be the perfect fit. 

[Stefan Bartelski]

One argument that is made is that you would need to change tires more often due to weight.

I don't know if that is really true. Depends on the tire and driving style.

My Ford Focus was the worst. I had to change tires every 36-40,000 miles. My XTS only needed three sets of tires in 250,000 miles.

We test the drive and steering systems for electric vehicles with multiple size and styles of tires. Now I am not measuring tire longevity. But instead how does the cars drive and steering control systems react to the different tires installed. I cannot show pictures of the test vehicles since they are not Cadillacs. But here is my tire pile. We have several styles of tests and rigs that we will use to measure how these perform.

Yes, I drive a tesla Model 3. The tires to need more frequent replacement. On the other hand, no oil or fluid changes, (other than filling up the windshield washer). We charge at home, except on road trips, so "fuel" costs are much lower. On road trips "fuel" costs are about 1/2 of what I would pay for our ICE vehicle. We drive to Miami from Atlanta twice a year. Charging adds about 60 minutes (gross) to the trip, net effect is actually only 20-30 minutes if you factor in meal breaks and bathroom breaks that you would take in any kind of car.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

One question I do have is regarding infrequent use of EV's.

How long would it be for the batteries to self-degrade when the vehicle is only being used say to go to church on a Sunday?   Or for short journeys to the shop and back?

Everyone is talking about Range anxiety, but what about the opposite?

Lastly, I cannot see myself buying an EV, simply because of the expense, plus my own cars (ICE) still look very nice, which is why I purchased them in the first place.   And, are appreciating in value.

Bruce.

[Clewisiii]

One other note. Until you have driven an EV. It is hard to understand how instantly quick and responsive they are.

It does not even matter the size. My old boss took an electric semi truck around a test track and did not realize he was also pulling a trailer.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

One other note. Until you have driven an EV. It is hard to understand how instantly quick and responsive they are.

It does not even matter the size. My old boss took an electric semi truck around a test track and did not realize he was also pulling a trailer.

That brings up other issues.

One of having so much acceleration amongst most other vehicles on the road that if not sensibly used, problems can occur.

Plus, when towing trailers, one has to be aware of what they are doing.   

Having all this power is not good for the inexperienced drivers that want to show off to their friends, then they complain that they are getting range anxiety because they don't realise that they have to suffer the loss of range because they are needlessly pushing the limits.

Bruce.

[billyoung]

I last week had the Climate Control Air Conditioning charged on my 1968 DeVille convertible ( last thing I needed to do ) at my local Cadillac dealer and when I was checking out a customer stated to the service manager that his brand new Cadillac Lyric was just towed in. He was less than pleased, I said nothing of course but was thinking God spend all that money and own a car that immediately fails? as for me at age 69 I cannot afford a new Kia gas powered car to say nothing of a $ 60,000.00 plus electric car. As inflation worsens and my dollar recedes I fear the future as even though I am back to working a job I can barely keep up.

[GregoryAlan]

I am ready for an a EV but an EV is not ready for me yet!

I need the ability to drive further than the current EVs can today. 250 miles on a charge then having to find a charging station and wait up to 2 hours for a charge doesn't work for me.

In 2013 my father bought a Ford Fusion, a hybrid vehicle. My father has macular degeneration and has not been able to drive for the last 3 years so it falls on me to provide transportation for the folks. My daily driver is a tall 4 wheel drive and neither of my old people can get in or out of my vehicle so I am forced to use the Fusion when I need to get them around.

It might just be a glitch of this 2013 Ford but I find that the battery doesn't like a bunch of short trips. I get a battery warning message on the dash after x amounts of short trips. I have taken it in to the Ford dealer and was informed that is the norm and to get it to go away I have to take the car on a small road trip. This EV (hybrid) example is not able to be plugged in to a wall charger. So maybe a pure EV or plug in hybrid has solved that issue.

I also discovered that this hybrid can not sit for a long period of time without being used. The car sat in my garage unused for something like 3 weeks. The day I needed it when my father was discharged from the hospital I got in it and it was dead.

I learned thanks to YouTube and many hours of watching videos that this Fusion has 2 batteries. The large battery that runs most everything and a small 12 volt car battery that keeps the computer alive. I would think that a car battery would have more life to it than a couple of weeks when all it is doing is keeping the computer alive but no, the dealer tells me that is the norm.

Just so you know where I stand, I bleed motor oil. I love everything about a dirty smelly noisy old gas engine. I will also be the first in line when they can develop an EV with enough range for me to tow a car trailer for a whole day without needing a charge. I need a way to charge just as easy in the boondocks as when I am in the city or at home. We are nowhere close to that.

Last year I needed a new lawn mower. My neighbors got a good laugh when I brought home a battery powered Toro mower. About the only maintenance this things need is a blade sharpening once a year. No gas. No oil. No hard starting. No tuneups. No broken pull ropes. Granted I am only on my second season of use so problems might develop in the coming years. My battery only lasts about 3/4 of my yard but I can either take a break until tomorrow or I can swap out to my second battery and finish up. My neighbors aren't laughing anymore.

I'll wrap this up by asking where do all the EV batteries go when their life is exhausted?

I love junk yards. I can wander through the old tin for hours. I'm not sure there is a plan in place to recycle or dispose of all the EV or hybrid batteries at end of life whether they wear out or have been in a crash. Maybe I live in a hole but where are all the tree huggers?

[Clewisiii]

Ev batteries go into recycling. Some just chopped up, but others go into other forms of energy storage. As noted these batteries degrade. And most are thought of as done in cars after they go below 80%. But there are other stationary uses for the batteries when done. Some people use them in there homes for battery storage from solar panels. There is a server farm that is backed up by used Nissan leaf batteries.

[Cadman-iac]

 I have a friend who uses old car batteries, (12v) for his house solar storage, and it seems to work just fine for him.
 But I'm in agreement with Gregory, until they get the technology to make an electric car/truck last all day while towing a trailer, I'll continue to use my very dependable ICE vehicles.

 On a side note here, just think of how much oil could be used for fuel if we only used plastic for flyswatters and paper plate holders, and maybe the lens on your dash cluster.
 Recycling would be changed forever because all of these plastic turdboxes wouldn't be littering up the salvage yards and highways.
 And think of how much longer you can use your vehicles if it didn't break every time you touched something or shut the door hard.
 What will people think? Oh yeah, we really can make quality products that will last forever, and can be rebuilt and used again,and again, and again.......and again, and again!!!
Damn!!! What a concept!!
I'm a genius, but wait, that's how we used to think back in the 20's,30's, 40's and 50's. What happened to us?

 Rick

[Clewisiii]

Unfortunately Oil for plastic and fuel does not work that way. Oil goes into a distillation tower where it is separated by its molecular weight. There is a certain band of weight that can be used for fuel, Then there are bands that separate out into the different grades of raw chemicals used for plastics and other things. The bottom of the distillation tower is what is used for Asphalt. The prices we currently pay is at an equilibrium with the volumes of raw materials that exit that distillation tower. If you need more ABS resin it does not divert oil away from Gas. We would need to pump more oil and the gas becomes a byproduct that may then reduce in price.

Now if we were to have a drastic reduction in the amount of fuel we need for transportation. If that reduces the amount of oil pumped then that is less raw material for Asphalt and plastic resins. If we need plastic at the same rate then we would still pump the same amount of oil but fuel grades would be a waste byproduct. We could reprocess into new things. As long as we do not burn it we do not release the carbon.

I was on a research project that looked at using waste molasses from processing sugar beets as an organic carbon source to make plastic. The project started in Italy where they were actually pumping the waste molasses directly to a land fill. So the raw material was free for them to process into plastic. We wanted to replicate the process in Michigan since we have a large sugar beet processing operation here. The problem is for America this is not a waste product. We have already found other uses, so as a commodity waste molasses was in the hundreds of dollars a ton. Oil for plastic is much cheaper at that rate. Side note the company in Italy was also involved in some form of scam and was shut down and investigated.