1950s 51 331 timing cover crank seal

[Caddy Chris UK]

Hi All,

Is it possible to remove the timing cover (to replace the felt oil seal on a '51 331) without removing the water pump first?

I've had a look and I'm not convinced that I can get sufficient access. I don't think it'll be possible (particularly tricky on driver's side).

I've just about resolved myself to draining the cooling system and removing the water pump... but thought I'd ask in case it can be done without all that bother.  Anybody managed to do it with the water pump remaining in place? Thanks.

If I do end up removing the water pump... are there any other 'follow-on' jobs that I should do at the same time. Coolant system flush is the only one I can think of... am I missing anything.

Many thanks for any replies.
Chris.

p.s. I'm not sure on forum etiquette... is it preferred to respond to an existing thread or start a new one if the old thread has been dormant for a while?  I think for those that find old threads in google it's better to keep adding onto an old thread – but that's just my current way of thinking. What's the accepted protocol/preference please...? Thanks.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

G'day Chris,

Welcome to the CLC Club.   I have started up a new thread for you, as sometimes we don't need to bring up matters from the grave, and your question is a different one.

Someone should come in, but I don't think it is possible to leave the water pump in place.

Bruce.

[Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373]

That's a good question. I would say you probably could, but I'm not suite sure if the bolt length would prevent you from removing/reinstalling them. If I remember, it's pretty tight behind the pump. And, I think it would be hard to get the new gasket on with some sealer without smearing it everywhere.
If it is old enough to have a bad front seal, then there is crap in the cooling system, so might as well pull the pump too.  I believe the seal/gasket kit for the front cover comes with water pump gaskets too.
Let us know what you find out.

Here is our 55's front for reference.

[Davidcamper]

I just finished that same job. Yes, you should pull the pump. It's really the only way to do it right and timely.

Also, not sure how original you want to keep it but an option is to replace the timing cover with a 53. It's the same exact cover except it uses a press-in (tap-in)seal versus that felt which will leak very soon that's why Cadillac changed it.

Also, while covers off check for slop in the timing chain and inspect gear teeth.

David

[Roger Zimmermann]

1949 to 1956 the front covers are the same. The change came with the engine nr. 103793 during the 1956 MY. Indeed, with a rubber seal, the front end of the engine will be leak free.
Don't use a 1957 cover: the index for the timing is on the wrong side. 1957 was really a strange construction...

[1959Fleetwood]

As other members suggest i too would change the timing cover to a later style (53-56) were a neoprene lip seal can be pressed in. Renew the felt ring with a cover still on the engine is not easy so to speak. However, if you remove the timing cover you will destroy the cork seal between the bottom of the timing cover and the front of the oil pan. To renew the half moon shaped cork seal and to get it in position in the correct way you have to remove your oil pan. (the same shape cork seal is also at the rear end of the oil pan) This is also a opportunity to clean out the oil pan from possible sludge and get rid of old brittle oil pan seals. Reinstalling the parts also has a sequence, first the new timing cover with seal installed and new gasket, then the half moon shaped cork seals at the lower end of the timing cover and the rear main bearing cap and then the oil pan. Use a little black silicone on all four corners were the oil pan gasket meets the half moon cork seal to make it free from oil leakkage. Now, if you want to go this far to change the timing cover you also have to pull the harmonic balancer, inspect this part for dry rotted rubber between the two steel parts. If the rubber vulcanization is dry rotted you have to have the balancer re-vulcanized. Check the surface of the outer shaft were the seal has to seal. Sometimes there's a groove on the outer shaft surface from wear of the old seal (common with lip seals)
If there's a groove or when there's pitting you can press on a thin wall Redi-sleeve to make the outer diameter of the balancer shaft smooth again. The part # for the repair sleeve is: National 99162. You can order that part through parts vendors in the USA or, since you are in the UK, give me a call, i have this part in stock also.
Hope this helps!

 

[Caddy Chris UK]

Hi Gents,
Bruce, Jeff, David, Roger, Matern,

Many thanks indeed for the replies... and all the info. Enough there to understand that this will take more 'prep' (and maybe more parts too!) and it's not a job for this weekend.

I have all the seals/gaskets needed (although I wasn't aware of the knock-on consequences of removing the timing cover  , Thanks Matern, i.e. how the job would turn into a larger job).

Since the sump has to come off to do the font seal, it seems like with a bit more prep I could do both the front and real seals at the same time - I've seen the great guides on this forum describing how to do the rear seal. I would also consider/prep for replacing the front felt seal with a rubber lip seal (#conflicted: original vs practical.... hmmm  ).

Thanks so much for taking the time to reply.
You've really helped.

Kind regards
Chris.

p.s. Bruce - thanks for starting this as a new thread for me.   

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Chris,

As for doing the rear main seal as well, I would say that unless it is leaking, don't touch it.

Everyone says it can be done, I find that trying to remove a "Dog-turd" seal that has been there for years, you have to remove the crankshaft to physically release the upper seal from the groove.   When removing the rear main bearing cap, I have always found that the seal is difficult to cleanly get it to release itself with the cap off.   Imagine the upper one being stuck in there.

When removing the Crank, or even loosening the other main bearing caps there is every possibility that you will see that the Main Bearings require replacing, then the Big Ends, then ending up with a complete rebuild.

Bruce.

PS.   You're welcome.

[Jay Friedman]

I agree with Bruce that if the rear main seal is not leaking, leave it alone. 

However, in my opinion the old upper half of the seal can be removed without removing the crankshaft.  Art Gardner, The Caddy Wizard, wrote an article on how to do this.  With the rear main bearing cap removed, if the other main bearing caps are loosened a bit the weight of the crankshaft will cause it to be lower by a few thousandths of an inch. This take some pressure off the upper half of the seal.  To get it out, Art's method is screw a small wood screw partly into one side of the seal.  Then pull the screw gently with a pair of pliers, while simultaneously pushing on the other side of the seal with a brass or wooden dowel (so as not to score the crankshaft journal). The old seal will then come out.  Art and I have done this on several 331 motors.

[Joe G 12138]

I successfully used a 1958 365 C.I. timing chain cover on my 1950 331. The crankshaft diameter is the same. It used the neoprene seal and the timing mark indicator was the same.

[Davidcamper]

Learn something new everyday. I did not realize that would interchange. Thanks for updating us.

[Caddy Chris UK]

Thanks Bruce, Dave, Joe! More good info - thanks.

I'm discovering starting 'a job' on an old car is a bit like pulling at a thread on an old jumper... it all soon starts to unravel and you end up doing a much bigger job than you started! Let's hope it doesn't end up needing the engine out! That really would be much more than I'd bargained for... 

I'm working away from home currently which makes for limited, sporadic, time spent on the car. I'm trying to order parts now for a winter job... so all your comments are very much appreciated - thank you. 

This thread has helped me to decide to tackle the water-pump, front and rear oil seals all at the same time... in one job. (The rear seal is leaking quite badly and running back along the gearbox...). I'll come back and provide an update on how I get on...

Happy driving,
Many thanks.
Chris.