1950s 365 oil pressure

[walkerj]

I picked up a rebuild 365 from a guy parting out his project due to failing health.  Fresh rebuild with all of the documentation and pictures. He never got around to putting it in the car and cantdo anymore work on it himself.  He said he couldn't get any oil pressure when priming it with a drill.  The pump makes a gulping noise but he couldn't get any oil pressure to show on a gauge and no oil to the rockers.   I had the pan off and looked all over. All of the plugs seem to be in place.  The pump had been rebuilt. I have the receipt for the rebuild kit and the pictures of the rebuild being done.  He told me the only thing he didn't get around to trying before getting sick was messing around with the pick up and a gasket or seal for it.   

I am going to start where he left off with the oil pick up and see about the seal for it because it sounds like the pump is getting a mix of air and oil.  Is is there anything else I should be looking at? Anything special about these engines to watch out for?

Thanks,JW.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Could it be that you are rotating the Priming shaft in the wrong direction?

It has to rotate in the same direction as the Distributor.

Bruce.

[Clewisiii]

These guys mostly just screw around on camera.

Doesnt really get to their oil pressure solution until 14 minutes in.

[walkerj]

Could it be that you are rotating the Priming shaft in the wrong direction?

It has to rotate in the same direction as the Distributor.

Bruce.

Counter clockwise.

These guys mostly just screw around on camera.

Doesnt really get to their oil pressure solution until 14 minutes in.

The plugs at both ends are in. The only difference is the plugs that were used by the shop that did the machining are threaded hex plugs. I reckon if they were too long it would block the passage and stop oil from getting to where it needs to go but what about the noise from the pump?  It sounds like a straw at the bottom of a cup trying to suck up the oil.

I read that there is supposed to be an oring on the pick up tube but other people say there isn't one. The previous owner said there wasnt one when he tore the engine down so he didnt put one on when he rebuilt it but he got the slurping sound and no pressure. So he said he put one on and got the same result. The only thing he didn't get around to trying was messing with the pick up arm. It is supposed to float on top of the oil, right? 

What I know forsure is the oil level in the pan = 5 qts like the manual calls for.  With the pan empty the drill can spin the pump counter clockwise full tilt. With 5 qts added to the pan the drill can spin full tilt for a few seconds and then it bogs down like it is churning butter and then there is a glugging sound from the pump area like oil and air being sucked through a tube.

[Big Fins]

By your description, there has to be a vacuum leak between the pump and the oil itself. Either in the floating pick up, the oil pump itself, or a missing seal or gasket somewhere in between.

Because it's a recent rebuild, I can say the sump screen could be clogged, but a decent rebuilder should have checked that. I'm also wondering if the machine shop even checked for pressure before releasing the engine to the customer.

[J. Gomez]

The plugs at both ends are in. The only difference is the plugs that were used by the shop that did the machining are threaded hex plugs. I reckon if they were too long it would block the passage and stop oil from getting to where it needs to go but what about the noise from the pump?  It sounds like a straw at the bottom of a cup trying to suck up the oil.

I read that there is supposed to be an oring on the pick up tube but other people say there isn't one. The previous owner said there wasnt one when he tore the engine down so he didnt put one on when he rebuilt it but he got the slurping sound and no pressure. So he said he put one on and got the same result. The only thing he didn't get around to trying was messing with the pick up arm. It is supposed to float on top of the oil, right? 

What I know forsure is the oil level in the pan = 5 qts like the manual calls for.  With the pan empty the drill can spin the pump counter clockwise full tilt. With 5 qts added to the pan the drill can spin full tilt for a few seconds and then it bogs down like it is churning butter and then there is a glugging sound from the pump area like oil and air being sucked through a tube.

JW,

Your description of the gurgling noise when the oil pump is spinning sounds like the felt washer at the pick-up tube is MIA.

There is no "O" ring on the pick-up tube just a felt washer seal and it is critical that is place back else you will be oil pump tube will be drawing air when the pump is operating.

This particular topic has been discussed in multiple post here you can do a search and find several ones.

Good luck..! 

[walkerj]

JW,

Your description of the gurgling noise when the oil pump is spinning sounds like the felt washer at the pick-up tube is MIA.

There is no "O" ring on the pick-up tube just a felt washer seal and it is critical that is place back else you will be oil pump tube will be drawing air when the pump is operating.

This particular topic has been discussed in multiple post here you can do a search and find several ones.

Good luck..! 

Yeah I have looked around on here and on the internet overall but I havent found anything that solved the problem I am having.

I drained out the oil and dropped the pan. The only thing I could see was petroleum jelly from the p/o when he packed the pump. It was all in the bottom of the pan.

The pickup is drenched in oil and had quite a bit inside. The windage tray was also submerged. Turning the pump with the pan off makes a sound like a dentist vacuum. The oil dripping out of the pick up stops when the pump is turned but it pukes out a good sized drop when the pump stops. So it seems like the pick up is in the oil and the pump draws oil but it doesnt go anywhere.

I swapped a picture of the pick up and there is a fuzzy looking gasket where it meets the pump. I talked to the p/o and he said the car didnt have one before the rebuild but it ran fine. He put it together without one and couldnt get pressure. He took it apart and put that "fuzzy looking washer from the gasket kit" on the end of the pick up but there was no change.  Now its my turn. So there is a seal on the pick up and it looks fuzzy like felt. Definitely not rubber.

Is is installed properly?  The manual doesnt help. None of the pictures I have seen show one of these seals or of there is a special way to install them.

[J. Gomez]

Yeah I have looked around on here and on the internet overall but I havent found anything that solved the problem I am having.

I drained out the oil and dropped the pan. The only thing I could see was petroleum jelly from the p/o when he packed the pump. It was all in the bottom of the pan.

The pickup is drenched in oil and had quite a bit inside. The windage tray was also submerged. Turning the pump with the pan off makes a sound like a dentist vacuum. The oil dripping out of the pick up stops when the pump is turned but it pukes out a good sized drop when the pump stops. So it seems like the pick up is in the oil and the pump draws oil but it doesnt go anywhere.

I swapped a picture of the pick up and there is a fuzzy looking gasket where it meets the pump. I talked to the p/o and he said the car didnt have one before the rebuild but it ran fine. He put it together without one and couldnt get pressure. He took it apart and put that "fuzzy looking washer from the gasket kit" on the end of the pick up but there was no change.  Now its my turn. So there is a seal on the pick up and it looks fuzzy like felt. Definitely not rubber.

Is is installed properly?  The manual doesnt help. None of the pictures I have seen show one of these seals or of there is a special way to install them.

Question on your first picture showing the oil pump and the pick-up tube  , what is the black stuff between the tube and the pump body? Also the same stuff behind the felt washer and the pick-up tube bracket is that a second washer or   ?

There should only be one washer there and the pick-up tube should be freely move up/down limited within the bracket tabs as well as in and out on the hole inside the pump before placing the cotter pin.

The felt washer seems to be place correctly (light brown one) on the first picture. Sorry I do not have a picture handy showing the oil pump and pick-up installed.

[walkerj]

Question on your first picture showing the oil pump and the pick-up tube  , what is the black stuff between the tube and the pump body? Also the same stuff behind the felt washer and the pick-up tube bracket is that a second washer or   ?

There should only be one washer there and the pick-up tube should be freely move up/down limited within the bracket tabs as well as in and out on the hole inside the pump before placing the cotter pin.

The felt washer seems to be place correctly (light brown one) on the first picture. Sorry I do not have a picture handy showing the oil pump and pick-up installed.

The pick up moves freely and there is only one seal on there. That creamy looking stuff on the fuzzy seal is petroleum jelly. There is alot of assembly lube that has dripped around as well. Its well lubricated in there. 

I reckon my next step is to pull the pump off and bench test it. It seems to move fluid but it doesnt seem to go anywhere from there.

[dn010]

Well it looks to me like the pressure relief valve on the pump is installed wrong. You shouldn't be looking at the valve right behind the retainer. The spring should be behind the retainer pushing the valve towards the gears. It looks like the spring is towards the gears pushing the valve open thus bypassing your oil (or there simply is no spring - the rebuilder forgot to put it in and the valve is wide open).

Pretty easy to check without disassembling anything, just one cotter pin. Take it apart and swap it around - put the valve in first, then the spring, then the retainer, cotter pin, then test it out.

[Roger Zimmermann]

Good catch!

[walkerj]

Well it looks to me like the pressure relief valve on the pump is installed wrong. You shouldn't be looking at the valve right behind the retainer. The spring should be behind the retainer pushing the valve towards the gears. It looks like the spring is towards the gears pushing the valve open thus bypassing your oil (or there simply is no spring - the rebuilder forgot to put it in and the valve is wide open).

Pretty easy to check without disassembling anything, just one cotter pin. Take it apart and swap it around - put the valve in first, then the spring, then the retainer, cotter pin, then test it out.

Thank you.  I looked at the pictures the p/o provided and the pump itself. The pieces are cotter pin, retainer, spring and then the piston or valve with the spring cupped inside it. P/o said he tried the spring that was in the pump when it was working before the rebuild and got the gurgling sound so he tried the new spring that came in the rebuild kit and got the same result.

I agree that the oil is being bypassed somehow cause the pump has oil in it and I can feel it firm up when I turn it by hand. The oil just doesnt go anywhere past the pump into the block. It all goes right back to the pan right away.  I am starting to wonder if there is a blockage downstream from the pump but would that cause the sucking and gurgling sound from the pick up?

Dont mind my primitive drawing skills!

[dn010]

Interesting. It most certainly looks like a piece of metal up against the retainer hole when it should be hollow, all the way down the tube to the valve. So you have taken it apart to verify? If you stick a metal wire or similar into that retainer hole, it goes in a few inches? You might try to take that all apart, leave the valve in and use a screw driver to hold it down while you try testing it and see what happens. Other than that, I am at a loss - time to remove it and open it up.

As an edit: you can also use the metal wire trick to feel the pressure valve move outward as you pressure up the pump to see how far it moves.

I have a spare pump at home that I can take a photo of, the pressure valve area looks nothing like what you have above, you can see the spring going down the hollow tube instead of that metal plate you see in yours so I question what that metal actually is.

[J. Gomez]

Thank you.  I looked at the pictures the p/o provided and the pump itself. The pieces are cotter pin, retainer, spring and then the piston or valve with the spring cupped inside it. P/o said he tried the spring that was in the pump when it was working before the rebuild and got the gurgling sound so he tried the new spring that came in the rebuild kit and got the same result.

I agree that the oil is being bypassed somehow cause the pump has oil in it and I can feel it firm up when I turn it by hand. The oil just doesnt go anywhere past the pump into the block. It all goes right back to the pan right away.  I am starting to wonder if there is a blockage downstream from the pump but would that cause the sucking and gurgling sound from the pick up?

Dont mind my primitive drawing skills!

I recall from old(er) posts that folks have had issues with the rebuilt kit oil pressure regulator spring that came with the kit.

Unfortunately I just can't remember if the issue they found was "low oil pressure" or "high oil pressure" at idle speed.   

Maybe someone here with a large memory capacity than me can chime-in    , or a search can find the older topics on this issue.

[Brad Ipsen CLC #737]

The shop manual has the spec on this relief spring.  The kits seem to generally be wrong so always check it to the spec.  The shop manual has a compressed length and pound force spec.  Get something this length to fit inside the spring and compress it on a postal scale to that length and you will read the pounds. Also, the original piston was a leaded alloy so it would never stick.  I doubt the kits have that so good to use the old one if it is okay.

[walkerj]

Im back finally with some results. 

The regulator parts were the piston or cup from the OPK51041 rebuild kit. A 2 21/32" spring. The original keeper and a cotter pin.

I compared the spring from the OPK51041 kit to the spring that was in the bore, and it was shorter. 

The manual says the spring should be 2 21/32" uncompressed.  Compressed to 1 7/16" it should give 5.5 - 5.75lbs of resistance.

I compressed the 2 21/32" spring on a postal scale and got 5.5 - 6lbs. It jumped around a bit because the scale is sensitive and the spring was itchin' to hit me in the eye. 5.5 - 6lbs was the average.

I put the 2 21/32" spring and the old piston in to the bore and pinned it down.  I put the pump in a shallow take out container and submerged the pick up in oil.  Turning the pump by hand I could only get a steady stream out of the bypass hole.  No matter how much I turned it, it wouldn't come out of the top port.

I plugged the bypass hole with my finger and gave it a few turns. Oil gradually built up and started coming out of the top port AND the bypass once I pulled my finger out of there.

Oil flow   <<video

Is it normal for that much oil to be coming out of the lower port?  It seems to be alot more than what comes out the top. I cant picture it making much pressure downstream when the bypass is so free flowing.

If that is normal, how do I keep that primed when installing it?  There was petroleum jelly in it once before but that didn't give any joy.  I cant keep my finger on there with the oil pan on.  I have never run into this before. Normally they slurp up the oil without needing an extra hand.

[Jay Friedman]

I recall from old(er) posts that folks have had issues with the rebuilt kit oil pressure regulator spring that came with the kit.

Unfortunately I just can't remember if the issue they found was "low oil pressure" or "high oil pressure" at idle speed.   

Maybe someone here with a large memory capacity than me can chime-in    , or a search can find the older topics on this issue.

Jose,

In my experience with my '49 (331 engine), oil pump rebuilding kits usually have an oil pressure relief valve spring that looks like the original spring but is stiffer.  This results in oil pressure that is too high. (Making it harder for the valve to reach the relief port in the pump.) To keep the oil pressure normal, I suggest using the original spring since they rarely wear out. 

BTW: At my age my memory capacity is pretty small, but have been burned enough with rebuilding kits that I'm  still able to remember this.

[dn010]

Book says the valve opens at 35lbs. There is no way you're getting 35lbs turning it by hand so there is something keeping the valve open. Try to remove everything and see if there is any obstruction in the bore. It is still unclear to me what this metal is behind the keeper, photo below. At this point you've identified the problem, might be a good idea to see if anyone has a used pump in the want thread. I had a pump kicking around my garage for decades, I will try looking for it again tonight but unfortunately when I had my garage floor epoxied, I may have thrown it away. I can't believe I would have but after years of trying to sell it and no one wanting it, I could imagine I did get rid of it.

[walkerj]

Book says the valve opens at 35lbs. There is no way you're getting 35lbs turning it by hand so there is something keeping the valve open. Try to remove everything and see if there is any obstruction in the bore. It is still unclear to me what this metal is behind the keeper, photo below. At this point you've identified the problem, might be a good idea to see if anyone has a used pump in the want thread. I had a pump kicking around my garage for decades, I will try looking for it again tonight but unfortunately when I had my garage floor epoxied, I may have thrown it away. I can't believe I would have but after years of trying to sell it and no one wanting it, I could imagine I did get

Book says the valve opens at 35lbs. There is no way you're getting 35lbs turning it by hand so there is something keeping the valve open. Try to remove everything and see if there is any obstruction in the bore. It is still unclear to me what this metal is behind the keeper, photo below. At this point you've identified the problem, might be a good idea to see if anyone has a used pump in the want thread. I had a pump kicking around my garage for decades, I will try looking for it again tonight but unfortunately when I had my garage floor epoxied, I may have thrown it away. I can't believe I would have but after years of trying to sell it and no one wanting it, I could imagine I did get rid of it.

I took it all apart and there is no metal piece in there.

I looked down the bore with an endoscope but I couldnt see anything in there along the sides or where the plunger seats. I checked it with the depth gauge on a caliper and then put the plunger in and it checks out minus the thickness of the plunger. 

Then I got a long screwdriver and put it down the bore into the seated plunger and had someone turn the pump while I held the plunger down. No change at all. I didnt feel amy resistance or pushback on the plunger as the pump was turned.  Oil kept flowing out of both ports.

The p/o said the engine ran before the rebuild. Not great I reckon but good enough to need a rebuild. He said he never had any problems with oiling which is why he didn't rebuild the pump at first.

Could it have run like this and gone unnoticed?

I just dont get what could be wrong with it. It only has like four moving parts.

I found a rebuilt pump at autoparts obsolete that doesn't require a core to be sent back, so I bought that one. Hopefully it will get here soon. I will update you all when it gets here. If thats not before Christmas, have a merry one!


JW

[walkerj]

I have good news and bad news.

The good news is my replacement pump arrived. 

While I was swapping over the vacuum pump I looked at the small hole on the pump housing where the oil was spurting from. It doesn't go to the pressure regulator at all. Its a straight shot down to a slot in the vacuum pump. 

This gave me an idea of what might have been wrong.

After it was all together I put it in a pan of oil but this time I plugged the hole at the top of the pump housing AND the port on the vacuum pump that takes the little L pipe from the block.  A couple of turns and oil was flowing from the outlet that goes to the main cap and nothing from the small secondary hole.

Now for the bad news.  It looks as though the cause of that bypassed oil all along was the uncovered port on the vacuum pump housing.  It wasn't the regulator at all. It was sucking oil into the vacuum pump and pumping it out that top hole which I guess is to vent oil that may leak into the vacuum pump.  BUT when the old pump was mounted, it had the L pipe fitted so oil shouldn't have been getting into the vacuum pump that way anyways.

I guess all I can do now is try it and see what happens once its installed again.

The really bad news is this pump cost me $490 and it looks as though I may not have needed it. 

Merry Christmas


-JW