1950s Unidentified brake drum

[Lexi]

I have a front driver side brake drum which I am told is Cadillac, and that it will fit my 1956 Cadillac car. I have not tried it out yet to see how it fits. It does have left hand studs, which are correct. It looks a little different from what I am accustomed to seeing though. I realize that Cadillac drums remained unchanged and/or similar for several years. They could be difficult to date. The drum in question has something that I have not seen before, an apparent grease seal cover for the inner bearing. My '56 drums do not have this, rather, just a heavy casting in which the seal fits into. See attached images. Can anyone identify this drum and confirm what year/s it is good for?

Attachments: 1) 1956 inner area with solid casting 2) unknown drum showing apparent slide over piece which at the top, is curved over as if to engage or work with a grease seal when installed.

Other question: How to remove and use without this and if possible? Thanks. Clay/Lexi

[Cadman-iac]

Hi Clay,

It's kinda hard to tell with the pictures you posted, but it does look like a 56 drum to me going by the shape of the center section alone. That pattern looks like the original drums from my car. Of course I've changed mine to the mid 60's thru 70's style.
Maybe you could take another picture or two of the outside of the drum just to be sure?
 As for the seal, it looks like it might have an oil slinger or catcher on it to keep any leaking grease from getting on the shoes. They used those a lot on the trucks of the era.
Rick

[Lexi]

A possible oil slinger/catcher. That is what I thought as it does appear to be made to work in unison with the seal-to trap any grease that may escape and to prevent it from getting onto the drum. I just have never seen one on any Cadillac drums. This drum is VERY similar to our '56s, and I will take some more pics. It also bears the "KH" stamp, which I think is the mark for wheel manufacturer Kelsey Hayes. They also made our Cadillac Sabre rims back then. Thank you Cadman-iac. Clay/Lexi

[Big Fins]

If you only need the drum, would it be possible to separate the drum from the hub?

Also, because you have a 75 series car, they may be of a heavier manufacturing for the added weight.

[dn010]

Drums and hubs separate, if my memory is fine it's the lugs holding it all together and once you press them out they separate. So really you're trying to figure out what the drum and the hub goes to.

[Lexi]

Drums and hubs separate, if my memory is fine it's the lugs holding it all together and once you press them out they separate. So really you're trying to figure out what the drum and the hub goes to.

Yes Dan, That is correct. Once the lug nuts are off, the studs can be pressed out which then separates the hub from the drum. I believe it was you who had that fantastic post detailing hub removal from the drum, a while back. I just would like to know if anyone can identify what year of (presmumed) Caddy this drum and hub assembly came from. While it appears to be non-1956 (my year of Cadillac), I suspect it will still work on my car. There are some differences though. I will post some overall images to show both soon. Clay/Lexi

Note 1: As a note to Dan's earlier posts on the related hub separation from the drum matter; if you can pull the drum off & leave the hub in place, you will save a ton of work. That way you don't have to fuss with the bearings and their re-installation and adjustment, which as member Phil Whyte once remarked, that can be a "Dark Art". LOL

Note 2: As per Big Fins comment, I believe that Cadillac Series 60 - 75 for 1956 used the same drums. There may be a different part number for the Series 86, but would have to check.

Note 3: A a word of caution to those not as familiar with Cadillac replacement drums for many vintage Caddies. I have seen new front drums advertised for sale, BUT...these lack the hub assembly. In my opinion they should only be advertised as rear drums. Should your front drum be damaged or over "spec'd", (in my case over 12 inches), buying one of these new "front drums" means that I would have to separate the hub from my existing drum and then press it onto the new drum with new studs, (as pressing out the old ones ruins them). Also, I don't think left hand threaded studs for the driver side are even still available as replacements. A pain in the you know what. But at least Rock Auto sells replacement RH threaded studs. My 20 ton press can do it, which I think is what Dan used, but regardless; for most people this is a machine shop job.

That said, I would like to know what this drum was originally designed for and if it will fit my 1956 Cadillac. Cadman-iac advised that the "slinger/catch" on the unknown drum probably also came with a top piece which is missing. Assuming this drum fits my car or whatever it was deseigned for, could it be used with just a new grease seal to by-pass this catch piece? Could it spin off as the wheel rotates?

Clay/Lexi

[Big Fins]

A quick search shows availability of 1/2" X 13 Left handed thread in many places.

I only go by looking at the pictures and wondering. I've never had a '56 in my possession to work on. I know the '59, with the ball bearing hubs were still available when I had mine and the drums also. The ball bearings and races I was able to retain from Miller Bearing using the OEM number as a cross reference.

[Lexi]

A quick search shows availability of 1/2" X 13 Left handed thread in many places.

I only go by looking at the pictures and wondering. I've never had a '56 in my possession to work on. I know the '59, with the ball bearing hubs were still available when I had mine and the drums also. The ball bearings and races I was able to retain from Miller Bearing using the OEM number as a cross reference.

Thank you Big Fins. That is encouraging to know that those studs are still available. I have also found NOS bearings and races online and I believe there are new repros of them as well, (though I have been told they are of dubious quality). Think I will root around and see if I can find some of those LH studs you mentioned, as back up. Clay/Lexi

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

One thing to remember before pressing out the studs.   Always check to see the amount of swaging on the outside that is there to retain the drum to the hub.

This swaging has to be properly removed before attempting to drive the studs out, or sever damage can occur.

Some time ago I posted a description of the tool required to remove these swages, but I cannot locate it.

Bruce.

[Cadman-iac]

Hey Clay,

Here's what the other half of that grease catcher looks like on our Cadillacs. It's basically just a rectangular piece with a round hole that your hub fits inside of and it keeps anything that is flung out of the hub from getting onto the shoes or drums.


 I don't remember if the factory had drilled holes in the backing plate so it can drain eventually as it got hot, or if they figured that someone would be inspecting the brakes before too much could build up in the pocket at the bottom, but I have two holes in mine near the bottom edge of the catcher. I think I may have drilled them myself at some point before deciding to use a different backing plate.
 

 Either way, unless your seal is totally toast, you should catch the build up before the pocket fills completely when you check your brakes periodically.

 As for removing the old drum from the hub, since the studs are not going to be reusable anyway, I just cut them off with a cut-off wheel on my grinder and grind down the remaining studs to remove the swedged portion, then the remainder can be driven out easily.
 Not seeing your old drums yet, and knowing that GM had used parts from previous years on the limos, I wonder if you might have a drum from a 54 or 55?
 The 55 I have had different drums on it than either of my 56's have.

 Rick

[PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192]

Yes Dan, That is correct. Once the lug nuts are off, the studs can be pressed out which then separates the hub from the drum. I believe it was you who had that fantastic post detailing hub removal from the drum, a while back. I just would like to know if anyone can identify what year of (presmumed) Caddy this drum and hub assembly came from. While it appears to be non-1956 (my year of Cadillac), I suspect it will still work on my car. There are some differences though. I will post some overall images to show both soon. Clay/Lexi

Note 1: As a note to Dan's earlier posts on the related hub separation from the drum matter; if you can pull the drum off & leave the hub in place, you will save a ton of work. That way you don't have to fuss with the bearings and their re-installation and adjustment, which as member Phil Whyte once remarked, that can be a "Dark Art". LOL

Note 2: As per Big Fins comment, I believe that Cadillac Series 60 - 75 for 1956 used the same drums. There may be a different part number for the Series 86, but would have to check.

Note 3: A a word of caution to those not as familiar with Cadillac replacement drums for many vintage Caddies. I have seen new front drums advertised for sale, BUT...these lack the hub assembly. In my opinion they should only be advertised as rear drums. Should your front drum be damaged or over "spec'd", (in my case over 12 inches), buying one of these new "front drums" means that I would have to separate the hub from my existing drum and then press it onto the new drum with new studs, (as pressing out the old ones ruins them). Also, I don't think left hand threaded studs for the driver side are even still available as replacements. A pain in the you know what. But at least Rock Auto sells replacement RH threaded studs. My 20 ton press can do it, which I think is what Dan used, but regardless; for most people this is a machine shop job.

That said, I would like to know what this drum was originally designed for and if it will fit my 1956 Cadillac. Cadman-iac advised that the "slinger/catch" on the unknown drum probably also came with a top piece which is missing. Assuming this drum fits my car or whatever it was deseigned for, could it be used with just a new grease seal to by-pass this catch piece? Could it spin off as the wheel rotates?

Clay/Lexi

Hi Clay,
I've considered doing that change to my car. I held off because it made me check and reset the bearings. It is a pain though and I will still be able to check the bearings and not dismantle them if not necessary. I'm sure I've seen Dorman wheel studs listed for our era Cadillacs in both right and left hand threads. My 54 has right hand threads all round, I don't know if that is correct or they've been changed sometime in the car's life? Come to think of it I do not recall seeing left hand threads mentioned in either the workshop or owners manual?
Phil

[Roger Zimmermann]

Cars from 1952 to 1956 have the same front drum/hubs with LH & RH studs. The LH studs from your car were once replaced with RH ones.

[PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192]

Cars from 1952 to 1956 have the same front drum/hubs with LH & RH studs. The LH studs from your car were once replaced with RH ones.

Thanks Roger,
I'm going to keep them that way as I've owned the car since 1989 and had no wheels fall off!

[Lexi]

Hi Clay,
Come to think of it I do not recall seeing left hand threads mentioned in either the workshop or owners manual?
Phil

Like Roger, I believe your driver side studs were originally LH threads. Still laughing over your "dark art" comment from a couple of years back. yeah, I know, get a life Clay! Clay/Lexi

[Lexi]

Hey Clay,

Here's what the other half of that grease catcher looks like on our Cadillacs. It's basically just a rectangular piece with a round hole that your hub fits inside of and it keeps anything that is flung out of the hub from getting onto the shoes or drums.

 I don't remember if the factory had drilled holes in the backing plate so it can drain eventually as it got hot, or if they figured that someone would be inspecting the brakes before too much could build up in the pocket at the bottom, but I have two holes in mine near the bottom edge of the catcher. I think I may have drilled them myself at some point before deciding to use a different backing plate.

 Either way, unless your seal is totally toast, you should catch the build up before the pocket fills completely when you check your brakes periodically.

 As for removing the old drum from the hub, since the studs are not going to be reusable anyway, I just cut them off with a cut-off wheel on my grinder and grind down the remaining studs to remove the swedged portion, then the remainder can be driven out easily.
 Not seeing your old drums yet, and knowing that GM had used parts from previous years on the limos, I wonder if you might have a drum from a 54 or 55?
 The 55 I have had different drums on it than either of my 56's have.

 Rick

Yes, yes! Sometime over the past 50 years I have had at least one of those in my parts and I did not know what it was. What year of Caddy of yours has this? And do you know how it and the lower part of this catch (part with red arrows in my above photo), comes off? Thanks. Clay/Lexi

[Lexi]

Here are a couple of shots as promised, of a pair of front wheel brake drums. The one on the left in the first photo, was on my 1956 Cadillac. The one on the right is the unknown drum, with the slinger/catcher on the inside-as pictured in my earlier post. Among other things, note the capsule shaped access port on the topside of the unknown drum, above and to the right of the Kelsey Hayes number. See image #2. My '56 does not have that. I presume it is for star wheel adjusting? My '56 has that capsule shaped hole, but it is cut into the backing plate instead. Both drums have that narrow slit cut into them which I think is a feeler guage inspection-access port. I believe the unknown drum is Cadillac, just not sure what year. Anti-squeal spring missing from the unknown drum, but looks like provision for one is there as in the '56. Clay/Lexi

[J. Gomez]

Here are a couple of shots as promised, of a pair of front wheel brake drums. The one on the left in the first photo, was on my 1956 Cadillac. The one on the right is the unknown drum, with the slinger/catcher on the inside-as pictured in my earlier post. Among other things, note the capsule shaped access port on the topside of the unknown drum, above and to the right of the Kelsey Hayes number. See image #2. My '56 does not have that. I presume it is for star wheel adjusting? My '56 has that capsule shaped hole, but it is cut into the backing plate instead. Both drums have that narrow slit cut into them which I think is a feeler guage inspection-access port. I believe the unknown drum is Cadillac, just not sure what year. Anti-squeal spring missing from the unknown drum, but looks like provision for one is there as in the '56. Clay/Lexi

Clay,

Just a wild hunch , could that be for a 1958/1959 I believe the spring silencer was not added after 1957. Also the outer bearings although they may look the same they were different sizes, the '56 BCA/National B62 inner shows the inner race OD as 2"/50.8mm and the '58/'59 BCA/National B66 inner shows the inner race OD as 1.9"/50.6mm.

Maybe you can measure both drums inner and outer ID to compare them

[Lexi]

Clay,

Just a wild hunch , could that be for a 1958/1959 I believe the spring silencer was not added after 1957. Also the outer bearings although they may look the same they were different sizes, the '56 BCA/National B62 inner shows the inner race OD as 2"/50.8mm and the '58/'59 BCA/National B66 inner shows the inner race OD as 1.9"/50.6mm.

Maybe you can measure both drums inner and outer ID to compare them

I as well think post dates 1956, but not sure. I will check those race measurements. Thank you Jose. Clay/Lexi

[Cadman-iac]

Yes, yes! Sometime over the past 50 years I have had at least one of those in my parts and I did not know what it was. What year of Caddy of yours has this? And do you know how it and the lower part of this catch (part with red arrows in my above photo), comes off? Thanks. Clay/Lexi

 Clay,

 The only 2 that I have, well 3, are the 55 and the 2 56's that used the "catcher", but I would imagine that it was something that was also used on earlier years, although I have no proof of that or personal experience.
 None of mine have the other piece that you have on the hub itself though.

 It's kinda hard to tell from your picture, but it almost looks like the piece on the hub is covering the whole outside of the hub from the inside edge to the flange.

 The ones I've found on trucks were just a small ring about 1/2" thick that was pressed onto a machined lip on the hub so it sat right at the edge to catch any grease that might escape the seal.

 Yours looks like it's a deeper collar that may be pressed over the whole hub, but like I said, I can't really tell from your picture. But if that's the case, it may be difficult to remove without destroying it.

 The design of the drum looks very much like your original, maybe just a slight difference in the ridges around the center section. That might be because yours is a heavier car, but I'm just guessing here. The silencer spring may have been removed or rusted off on your spare drum, who knows what might have happened over the years.
 I was thinking that what Jose said may be the case, it's from a newer year, but again, I don't have any experience with the newer ones. It's definitely not one from 63 and up as those used fins that went from inside to outside instead of around the circumference.

 As Phil brought up the left handed studs, I had to replace the studs on mine and I went with all righthand thread for the simple fact that when you take your car in to a tire shop, (or any other for that matter), most tire jockeys have never seen lefthanded threads on a car before and I've seen a lot of broken studs from them trying to remove the nuts the wrong way.
 I nearly broke one before I realized I was turning it the wrong direction when I first got my car, and I've sold enough replacement studs and nuts in my time to know better, so imagine a kid just starting out in a new job and someone brings in an old car with lefthanded studs on it. What are the odds that he's going to break at least one, and maybe two before taking a closer look at them.
 Obviously GM and Chrysler determined that it was not necessary to use lefthanded threads to keep the nuts from rotating off and went with righthand threads on both sides in later years. Save yourself some headache and money, just go with righthand studs since you have to replace them anyway. They're cheaper, easier to find, and less likely to be broken by inexperienced mechanics.

 Rick

[Lexi]

Makes sense Cadman-iac, as your posts routinely do. Yes, I also remember those 1960s finned drums. This oddball drum of mine right now does not require studs. So, I am going to leave it alone for the time being. I also avoid taking my car to an outside source if the wheels need to be removed, for the reason you gave. Good advice you provided. Newbies on this site with LH threads, take note! Clay/Lexi