1960s Disc brake conversion 1961 Series 62

[Lexi]

Yes, hence my comments about daily driving in a busy metropolis. More demanding on your vehicle's braking system. I would not fault someone for also installing a dual master cylinder in place of a single reservoir. Safer, with peace of mind. Clay/Lexi

[PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192]

The original brakes, set up as per the manual are more than capable of doing the job.
Phil

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

I personally am all for upgrading brakes, as the driving conditions back in the day are nothing like they are now.   As a driver of drum-braked cars over the years, leave enough room in front to comfortably, will only allow a couple of small cars to slip in to fill the void.

New drivers of modern cars have no idea of what it takes to drive a Drum-braked car.   Then they complain if hit up the backside by the older vehicle.

Bruce.      

[Cadman-iac]

The original brakes, set up as per the manual are more than capable of doing the job.
Phil

 This is true if people still drove like they did when these cars were new, but unfortunately they don't, and most seem like they just got their license last week.

 

I personally am all for upgrading brakes, as the driving conditions back in the day are nothing like they are now.   As a driver of drum-braked cars over the years, leave enough room in front to comfortably, will only allow a couple of small cars to slip in to fill the void.

New drivers of modern cars have no idea of what it takes to drive a Drum-braked car.   Then they complain if hit up the backside by the older vehicle.

Bruce.      

 This is exactly why I wanted to upgrade my brakes to disc, but I settled for just improving the existing drum brakes as much as possible.

 If driver's education was still taught and required to receive a license, the roads would be much safer in my opinion.
 Since educating drivers seems to be too difficult, the automakers are attempting to educate their vehicles to keep the idiots from killing more people.

  Rick

[PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192]

To be absolutely honest I have run my 54 CDV both with and without the power brake booster (when I had it rebuilt), both ways it was more than capable of stopping sharply. I've never experienced brake fade with it either - that said I've not driven it for prolonged periods in hilly or mountainous areas. I drove it in and around London mostly, the traffic there is not good. I've never felt the need to upgrade to discs.
I'm not saying anyone in this thread is guilty of this, but I have noticed that often when someone hits a problem on their car they go for ripping everything out and putting in a modern replacement. Charging system plays up, put in an alternator, steering is worn, put radial tyres on, brakes not stopping the car, fit discs. These are the 3 main "fixes" I've seen over the years.
Each to their own and everyone is free to do what they want with their cars.
Phil

[Lexi]

I can see both sides of this debate. Still, my experience is that the brake system deseigned for my car seems adequate based on the driving conditions it is exposed to. A little surprised to learn that driving your '54 without the booster worked fine. And yes, there are a lot more idiots on the road these days. Clay/Lexi

[TJ Hopland]

Constant traffic that ends up limiting the overall speeds isn't a problem.  Its the areas were you can get some speed up then often due to bad design have to fairly suddenly stop then possibly repeat that process.  Another problem area is the interchanges, the theoretically non stop variety where you can end up having to slow down from a high speed likely to make a tight curve then accelerate again then possibly repeat....  yes again a bad design but if thats how the roads are where you live you may not have a choice. 

It was one of those interchanges that caused me to need a new pair of shorts in a drum car I owned at one time.  The car was a base model but had already been upgraded to the 'performance' option that had larger and wider finned drums than it was stock.  Still had everything else stock so it still could not get out of its own way and it wasn't like a bunch of weight was added with a big V8 sort of thing that often happens.  When I got the car I had planned on discs but up to this point I had not really noticed any issues so was going to just keep the drums. 

To get to where I was going I had to go though 2 consecutive interchanges.  On the first one I didn't notice anything unusual and had to go from 70 down to like 25 to stay on the road then in theory back to 70 briefly (which this car would have needed rockets to do) then back to 25.  It was part way through that 2nd interchange that I was no longer slowing down with moderate pedal pressure so I pressed harder which didn't result in slowing down much.  So I tried harder and that was when the pedal went to the floor, I assume possibly boiled fluid in one or more wheel cylinder.  It was just luck that by that time the traffic in front of me was accelerating so I was able to more or less coast to a less dangerous spot and use the hand brake to stop and figure out what the heck just happened.

Pedal came back a little bit after sitting on the side of the road for a couple hours but didn't fully come back till I bled the whole system.  Not sure why that was, I would think since its sealed that once it cooled what ever was boiling would condense back to a liquid and back to normal but it didn't. Fluid level looked normal and there were no signs of leaks anywhere.  Next day I had a kit on the way with front disc, dual mc, and a booster.

Now if you don't have any roads like that where you live or drive on them when there is no other traffic you could come into that at a much lower speed to start with and stay slow between the 2 interchanges so you would not have to again burn off a lot of speed but you can't safely do that when there is other traffic.

For me I want as few as possible reasons not to drive my classics.  When I'm trying to decide what car to take I don't want to have to think about what route I may take and what the traffic may be like.  I want to just grab any car and for the most part be able to handle any road or traffic that I may encounter in my area.   

[PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192]

I can see both sides of this debate. Still, my experience is that the brake system deseigned for my car seems adequate based on the driving conditions it is exposed to. A little surprised to learn that driving your '54 without the booster worked fine. And yes, there are a lot more idiots on the road these days. Clay/Lexi

It is a remote booster on my car, so it works fine with it removed (I had to make a brake pipe to connect up without it). A bit more pedal pressure on my part but stopped on a dime.

[PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192]

Constant traffic that ends up limiting the overall speeds isn't a problem.  Its the areas were you can get some speed up then often due to bad design have to fairly suddenly stop then possibly repeat that process.  Another problem area is the interchanges, the theoretically non stop variety where you can end up having to slow down from a high speed likely to make a tight curve then accelerate again then possibly repeat....  yes again a bad design but if thats how the roads are where you live you may not have a choice. 

It was one of those interchanges that caused me to need a new pair of shorts in a drum car I owned at one time.  The car was a base model but had already been upgraded to the 'performance' option that had larger and wider finned drums than it was stock.  Still had everything else stock so it still could not get out of its own way and it wasn't like a bunch of weight was added with a big V8 sort of thing that often happens.  When I got the car I had planned on discs but up to this point I had not really noticed any issues so was going to just keep the drums. 

To get to where I was going I had to go though 2 consecutive interchanges.  On the first one I didn't notice anything unusual and had to go from 70 down to like 25 to stay on the road then in theory back to 70 briefly (which this car would have needed rockets to do) then back to 25.  It was part way through that 2nd interchange that I was no longer slowing down with moderate pedal pressure so I pressed harder which didn't result in slowing down much.  So I tried harder and that was when the pedal went to the floor, I assume possibly boiled fluid in one or more wheel cylinder.  It was just luck that by that time the traffic in front of me was accelerating so I was able to more or less coast to a less dangerous spot and use the hand brake to stop and figure out what the heck just happened.

Pedal came back a little bit after sitting on the side of the road for a couple hours but didn't fully come back till I bled the whole system.  Not sure why that was, I would think since its sealed that once it cooled what ever was boiling would condense back to a liquid and back to normal but it didn't. Fluid level looked normal and there were no signs of leaks anywhere.  Next day I had a kit on the way with front disc, dual mc, and a booster.

Now if you don't have any roads like that where you live or drive on them when there is no other traffic you could come into that at a much lower speed to start with and stay slow between the 2 interchanges so you would not have to again burn off a lot of speed but you can't safely do that when there is other traffic.

For me I want as few as possible reasons not to drive my classics.  When I'm trying to decide what car to take I don't want to have to think about what route I may take and what the traffic may be like.  I want to just grab any car and for the most part be able to handle any road or traffic that I may encounter in my area.   

I've driven my car at high speed for long periods, I've driven it for long distances on roads with variable speed limits (our government loves doing that), speeding up and slowing down. I also drove a drum braked GMC suburban from my home, all the way across France and into Spain. This involved a lot of mountainous driving, no issues.
I hope I don't end up eating my words and having brake failure!
One of the jobs on my list is to re rubber my whole brake system.

[Cadman-iac]

  Where did Cadillac mount the booster on the 54/55 models? I have dismantled my 55 parts car and I don't remember exactly. I think it sat just behind the grille, but not positive on that.

Rick

[Lexi]

It is a remote booster on my car, so it works fine with it removed (I had to make a brake pipe to connect up without it). A bit more pedal pressure on my part but stopped on a dime.

That is fascinating Phil. Clay/Lexi

[Lexi]

When I had my '56 serviced at a transmission shop that specialized in hydramatics, the owner/mechanic took me and the car out for a test drive. As his shop is in the middle of an industrial area, with no highways nearby, he had to drive the car hard to get her up to speed to road test. Stop signs were everywhere, so there were repeated stops and heavy braking. Quite irratating and also indicative of the "Safety Simon" mentality of the do-gooders in the city planning department. Anyhow, it didn't take long for the brakes to over heat and brake fade to occur. I had to wait about 45 minutes for the drums to cool before I could drive home. The drums were so hot it felt like you could roast marshmallows over them. Clay/Lexi

[PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192]

When I had my '56 serviced at a transmission shop that specialized in hydramatics, the owner/mechanic took me and the car out for a test drive. As his shop is in the middle of an industrial area, with no highways nearby, he had to drive the car hard to get her up to speed to road test. Stop signs were everywhere, so there were repeated stops and heavy braking. Quite irratating and also indicative of the "Safety Simon" mentality of the do-gooders in the city planning department. Anyhow, it didn't take long for the brakes to over heat and brake fade to occur. I had to wait about 45 minutes for the drums to cool before I could drive home. The drums were so hot it felt like you could roast marshmallows over them. Clay/Lexi

No doubt the same would happen with my car Clay. I'm just glad I don't live in St. Louis Mo. every street there has a stop sign every 10 yards!

[PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192]

Where did Cadillac mount the booster on the 54/55 models? I have dismantled my 55 parts car and I don't remember exactly. I think it sat just behind the grille, but not positive on that.

Rick

I'll take a photo tomorrow, it's on the left hand side, from memory attached to the frame on a bracket above the A arm.

[Cadman-iac]

I'll take a photo tomorrow, it's on the left hand side, from memory attached to the frame on a bracket above the A arm.

 Oh yeah, it's more or less in the same location as on a 56, except sits a bit lower, and the master is under the floor.
 Thanks for jogging my memory Phil. I'm not sure why I was thinking it was sitting behind the grille.

  Rick

[TJ Hopland]

Was there a year where it was vertical? 

[Cadman-iac]

Was there a year where it was vertical? 

 I don't believe so, but I'm no historian on what they've tried.
 My experience is with the 50's through the 90's, anything newer I wasn't interested in, and anything older I just never had access to.

 The 56 is the oddest one I've ever seen. The booster and master cylinder are both mounted about 6 inches above the left upper control arm and uses a pair of long rods and pivot setup to get from the pedal to the booster.
 The edge of the master cylinder is just behind the core support.

 I guess this was the first attempt to get the master cylinder out from underneath the floorboard.
 In 57 it was moved to the firewall and there it stayed.

 Rick

[TJ Hopland]

56 must be the one I was thinking of.  I just remember linkages.

[Cadman-iac]

I don't have a picture of an original 56 booster and master unit, but I do have one of the Hydro-boost that I have been trying to fit into the the same location.
 My 56 parts car still has the original unit in it, and if I get a chance in the future I'll take a picture of what it looks like so you can see it's what you were thinking of.



 Rick

[Roger Zimmermann]

Was there a year where it was vertical? 

Yes: 1958.