'67 Eldorado Quit. Advice please

[Alan Harris CLC#1513]

Amazing how that Bubba guy gets around!

[TJ Hopland]

Anyone got a 67 manual and can confirm what I was seeing for wire colors and gauges?  It seems a little strange that the main 10 gauge wires have 16 link wires, more typical would be a 14 so that is one thing I would like to be verified out of an actual manual.

[Michael Petti]

I had a similar issue woth a 60 CDV. Have you checked out your battety cables? Mine was corroded internally, underneath the outer covering. Replacing it solved the problem. Just a thought.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Anyone got a 67 manual and can confirm what I was seeing for wire colors and gauges?  It seems a little strange that the main 10 gauge wires have 16 link wires, more typical would be a 14 so that is one thing I would like to be verified out of an actual manual.

I don't have the actual manual that you need, but I have found by working on many GM brands is that the engineers tended to use the same colour coding across the range of wiring looms.

I used a 1972 GM Wiring diagram to sort out a 1974 Holden Statesman (Australian) wiring issue, and the colour coding was almost exactly the same.   Where things do suddenly alter is in the late model vehicles that use relays to switch everything, allowing the switching wiring to be really thin, and lots more of it.

Bruce.

[joeinbcs]

Anyone got a 67 manual and can confirm what I was seeing for wire colors and gauges?  It seems a little strange that the main 10 gauge wires have 16 link wires, more typical would be a 14 so that is one thing I would like to be verified out of an actual manual.

Yes, I have the manual, and your information is correct (16 link wires).  And all the colors and other wire sizes are as you said in your previous message.

[dn010]

Not sure if you saw my message since I edited it before you posted to the original message, but have you used a volt meter on the battery, solenoid and check the voltage at the fuse box? I know you said you're using a test light, but those can light up with low voltage.

[joeinbcs]

Not sure if you saw my message since I edited it before you posted to the original message, but have you used a volt meter on the battery, solenoid and check the voltage at the fuse box? I know you said you're using a test light, but those can light up with low voltage.

Yes, I did see your suggestion.  Thanks.  My voltmeter is acting up.  Need to borrow one to do the checks you recommend.  My neighbor has one, so hopefully I can do it today.

[TJ Hopland]

For this sort of thing a old school incandescent (non LED) test light is a better tool than a volt meter.  A volt meter either old analog or digital doesn't really put any load on things so you can easily get fooled into thinking you have power somewhere because you get a decent voltage reading but as soon as you try to put a load on (run something) you get nothing.  If you can do the checks with the load on its a better test but with as many issues as there is in this case you can't always be sure what you are testing is actually 'on'. A test light isn't much load but its higher than a meter would be.  Also in this case we are not suspecting a low voltage we are pretty sure we got no voltage. 

Good to know at least one diagram online was correct,  ya sometimes don't know when you find something online.  Did you find that bulkhead connector?  Maybe its tucked under the brake booster?  I don't think that is where your current problem is but I do wonder if maybe the original problem that caused that red bypass spliced on wire to be installed. 

Is there any electrical stuff on this car that isn't stock that you know of other than some of these red wires we just learned about? 

If you search for Packard 56, GM 56, Delphi 56 you should get plenty of hits for the terminals pins that are likely what is used in on that bulkhead and ignition connectors so its actually pretty easy to just replace any wires that have been hacked or damaged rather than adding another splice into the mix.   

 

["Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364]

Joe
I don't know if someone has mentioned this above, but the short harness from the starter can be unplugged and you can directly check continuity of the wires. If that harness is the same as the 68-72 Eldo it is still available
Greg Surfas

[joeinbcs]

Joe
I don't know if someone has mentioned this above, but the short harness from the starter can be unplugged and you can directly check continuity of the wires. If that harness is the same as the 68-72 Eldo it is still available
Greg Surfas

Thanks, Greg.  I did notice that there was a plug, and I'd thought about taking the harness out to inspect.  Good idea.  I'll have a look at that later today.

[joeinbcs]

For this sort of thing a old school incandescent (non LED) test light is a better tool than a volt meter.  A volt meter either old analog or digital doesn't really put any load on things so you can easily get fooled into thinking you have power somewhere because you get a decent voltage reading but as soon as you try to put a load on (run something) you get nothing.  If you can do the checks with the load on its a better test but with as many issues as there is in this case you can't always be sure what you are testing is actually 'on'. A test light isn't much load but its higher than a meter would be.  Also in this case we are not suspecting a low voltage we are pretty sure we got no voltage. 

Good to know at least one diagram online was correct,  ya sometimes don't know when you find something online.  Did you find that bulkhead connector?  Maybe its tucked under the brake booster?  I don't think that is where your current problem is but I do wonder if maybe the original problem that caused that red bypass spliced on wire to be installed. 

No, I haven't found the bulkhead connector.  But, I think I need to look for it from below the engine, and I'll do that later today.

Is there any electrical stuff on this car that isn't stock that you know of other than some of these red wires we just learned about? 

As far as I know there is nothing non standard except a Custom Autosound stereo unit.  I had to play around with the headlight switch to get the headlight doors to work (success) some time ago.  I did notice a green wire in search of a connector to mate with near the fuse block before the current issue.  Still not sure where that belongs.

If you search for Packard 56, GM 56, Delphi 56 you should get plenty of hits for the terminals pins that are likely what is used in on that bulkhead and ignition connectors so its actually pretty easy to just replace any wires that have been hacked or damaged rather than adding another splice into the mix.   


Thanks, I'll have a look !
 

[Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373]

With Bubba having been there, you never know. But what has me thinking is that everything went. I can see if 1 of Bubba's "Improvements" failed, but all 3 at once makes me think it is a main power problem. Just as TJ says, it is like a tree.
Just for grins, try this-- Take a set of jumper cables. Go from the positive battery straight to the main starter lug. Then go from the negative battery to the engine somewhere and see what happens.
The intent here is to totally bypass the car's own battery cables. It will only take a couple of minutes and may save some troubshooting time.

[TJ Hopland]

Is it an inline connector or bulkhead?  The manual bits I found didn't give a location but based on what appeared to be going through it it kinda seemed like a bulkhead connector.  Some of the underhood stuff didn't go through it like I would have expected it to if it was just inline. 

I know my 73 had a 6 pin connector (with only 5 used) inline for that starter harness.  No idea when they started using that but I do know they got rid of it likely due to issues there as they aged. 

If there is a 68-72 starter harness available and its not stupid expensive it may be a reasonable option even if its not an exact plug in.  The wire and terminals are not that expensive and readily available but its gonna take a bit of skill and time to build it all up especially since you don't really have an original to copy to get all the lengths right.   

[TJ Hopland]

I just found another diagram online and it shows what I think is the series 60? car as having that 6 pin connector in just the starter part of the harness.  There is also another connector that I presume is the bulkhead one.  Did the series 60 get a redesign earlier than the rest of the cars?  Maybe 68 they all got that starter connector that went through at least 73?  Maybe the Eldo also being a new slightly odd car got that connector too in 67?   Diagram says 693 car and google told me that was the series 60.  Or was it the Eldo?

[joeinbcs]

Just for grins, try this-- Take a set of jumper cables. Go from the positive battery straight to the main starter lug. Then go from the negative battery to the engine somewhere and see what happens.
The intent here is to totally bypass the car's own battery cables. It will only take a couple of minutes and may save some troubshooting time.

I'll try it.  Just to be clear, the "negative battery to the engine somewhere" is just for a ground? Thanks for the suggestion.

["Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364]

Jeff
All you have to do to verify the main battery cables is to check ( with a voltmeter) for 12 volts at the large electrical lug on the starter
Greg surfas

[Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373]

Jeff
All you have to do to verify the main battery cables is to check ( with a voltmeter) for 12 volts at the large electrical lug on the starter
Greg surfas

Yes, but respectfully-
If the main cable has multiple broken strands or corroded, it may still show 12v on a voltmeter, but not allow enough umph to go thru it to power anything.
My 1st car was a Bug. It had one of those braided ground straps. Everything would shut down when I tried to start it (radio, etc) but would work ok if it wasn't trying to pull current. Noticed the ground was really hot. Replaced it, and all worked well.
A voltmeter test would not have shown that.
It won't hurt anything, and will only take a couple minutes, to bypass the car's cables with jumper cables.
Can't hurt.

[joeinbcs]

So, a little update.  Been tied up with family matters, but did take the harness that goes from the plug on the passenger inner fender to the solenoid off.  It looks like somebody used a harness from a different car.  It was far too long and had been rolled up and zip tied under the water control valve.  I tested the wires and they all had connectivity.  Then I ordered three fusible links (one 18g, two 16g) that should have been there.  I'll clean the plug connections, cut the excess wire lengths out of the harness and attach the fusible links and put everything back together.  But, I'm wondering if this will make any difference.  It would seem that if there were good connections, the problem may lie elsewhere.  Thanks, Joe

[James Landi]

Joe,

You're correct in your assumption that the "rat's nest" of wires without the fusible links is a good thing to correct, but I also agree with your concern that you may not solve the initial problem 

I suggest that you take Jeff's advice.  High impedance digital voltmeters can often provide unreliable results, and the ground and/ or positive battery cables may look fine from the outside but be "hiding" almost entirely corroded wire inside. If this does not yield results,   I also suggest that you unscrew the key switch and check the large cable connections at the switch.   Hope you get your car going soon.  James
 

[TJ Hopland]

Where does that red wire through the firewall that spliced under the dash go on the under hood side?  I would be focused on that and figuring out why it was done.  Was it to try and bypass a failure?  Possibly at the bulkhead connector?   Was it because of some added equipment that may or may not still be in place?  Maybe something was removed and that 'live' wire is just flopping around somewhere?