'67 Eldorado Quit. Advice please

[joeinbcs]

Howdy,
I was exercising my '67 Eldorado yesterday and all was good.  AC blowing cold, everything working as designed.  This car has never let me down in the four years I've owned it. I've taken trips of several hundred miles as recently as a couple weeks ago. She always performed admirably.
But, yesterday, as I was cruising the country roads near my house at only about 30 mph through a 90 degree corner, the AC quit, the GEN light flickered for a split second then off, and I had no power at all.  Engine had died, nothing electric worked.  Fortunately, I wasn't going fast and stopping was easy.  And, as its a rural area with little traffic, there was little danger. 
My first thought was to check the negative ground from the battery to the frame, as I had this issue on another car in the past.  But, the ground was fine.  Same for engine ground strap. Battery was producing 12 volts.  I checked the connection at the starter and it was getting power.  I was lucky to break down in front of a really helpful family's little ranch.  We towed my car the short distance to my place and she's back in the garage.
But, I don't know what to check next.  Has anybody had this kind of total failure?  By the way, this car always runs cool, and it was not overheated at all.  There are no engine issues.  Like I said, everything was working properly until it wasn't.
Any advice will be appreciated. 

[Bryan J Moran]

This will probably be obvious but you did try to start it by turning the key and got nothing?  Any dash lights illuminate?  Would probably need a wiring diagram but my first inkling would be the coil or the circuit to the coil.  Others can chime in.

[joeinbcs]

Thanks, Bryan.  Turning the key does nothing.  No lights, either switched or unstitched, or other electrical stuff works at all.  The GEN light flickered for a split second when the engine quit, nothing on the dash since.  Thanks for the suggestion on the coil.  I'll have a look.

["Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364]

No power to anything is a good indication of burnt or broken fused primary wires down at the starter.
Greg surfas

[TJ Hopland]

Does any electrical stuff work?

Assuming 67 was the same as slightly later and the 70's GM's basic system was 3 fusible link wires coming off the battery terminal at the starter.  Fusible link wire is usually around a foot in length, has a more rubbery insulation, and is a solid core.  Also can be identified by an inline splice where it transitions to regular wire.  When a link wire 'blows' the insulation isn't supposed to melt just the wire inside it so at a glance it may look fine. 

One of the link wires feeds the headlight switch, just for the headlights, the other lights are controlled by the switch but now powered from this link wire.  Another link wire feeds half the fuse box for the stuff that is always on.  Last link wire feeds the key which then feeds the rest of the fuse box for the stuff that comes on with the key.  Seeing what still works (if anything) and knowing that basic layout may help you figure out where to start looking. 

Down at the starter is a good place to start looking since its not far from road grime then follow the harness that has to get routed around the exhaust.  Often times when a starter gets changed heat shields and cable guides don't get installed properly or at all so around the exhaust is a common place to find damage.  Next place for issues is the bulkhead connector (assuming they were using them in 67).  All 3 of those main feeds go through connections that over time could have issues.     

[J. Skelly]

Joe,

Besides what was already posted, I would remove all of the wires at the starter and inspect them.  Also clean these connections prior to reinstalling them.  Decades ago, I had a no-start issue on my '71 Eldorado and the wires looked good.  I took the wires off and found that one had a lot of corrosion that was hidden until the wires were removed.

[joeinbcs]

Does any electrical stuff work?

Assuming 67 was the same as slightly later and the 70's GM's basic system was 3 fusible link wires coming off the battery terminal at the starter.  Fusible link wire is usually around a foot in length, has a more rubbery insulation, and is a solid core.  Also can be identified by an inline splice where it transitions to regular wire.  When a link wire 'blows' the insulation isn't supposed to melt just the wire inside it so at a glance it may look fine. 

One of the link wires feeds the headlight switch, just for the headlights, the other lights are controlled by the switch but now powered from this link wire.  Another link wire feeds half the fuse box for the stuff that is always on.  Last link wire feeds the key which then feeds the rest of the fuse box for the stuff that comes on with the key.  Seeing what still works (if anything) and knowing that basic layout may help you figure out where to start looking. 

Down at the starter is a good place to start looking since its not far from road grime then follow the harness that has to get routed around the exhaust.  Often times when a starter gets changed heat shields and cable guides don't get installed properly or at all so around the exhaust is a common place to find damage.  Next place for issues is the bulkhead connector (assuming they were using them in 67).  All 3 of those main feeds go through connections that over time could have issues.     

Nothing at all worked after the car stalled and the GEN light momentarily flickered, then went black.
Looks like I need to inspect the starter connections first and see if that helps.
Thanks a lot for your interest and advice.

[joeinbcs]

No power to anything is a good indication of burnt or broken fused primary wires down at the starter.
Greg surfas

Thanks, Greg!  At least the AC was working well...until everything else quit...LOL.

[Alan Harris CLC#1513]

The wiring at the starter is the best place to begin. For what it is worth, many years ago, I had a 1965 DeVille that developed a similar problem. Turned out to be the ignition switch. Good luck!

[Mike Baillargeon #15848]

My guess is the wiring at and around the starter.....I think there is an inline fuse within a clump of wires near and above the starter.

Sometimes those wires make their way to an exhaust pipe and get cooked...

Check to see if power is getting thru that inline fuse....

Mike

[TJ Hopland]

Since you have nuthn start at the battery, double tripple check the ground and just for fun grab a set of jumper cables and add some more grounds between the batt, engine, and body just to be sure.  Once you know for sure you are good on that side start tracing the positive side from the battery.  Junction at the starter is likely but who knows maybe you had some odd cable failure.

A test light is a great tool for this sort of thing.   If you don't have one do you have any extra automotive bulbs and sockets laying around?  Make your own.  A tail lamp? Great.  Trailer light? Great. Headlamp that will work too.  Connect one end to ground then work your way along starting at the battery till you loose it.   One of those power probe things would be cool here too.  A digital meter can fool you since they don't really load the system, you could get a voltage reading but as soon as you try to load it it goes away.

[James Landi]

I owned a 67 Eldorado that did exactly the same thing way back in 1980!  A/C on, hot day.  It was my daily driver, and I have no idea regarding mileage as, as usual, the odometer had failed. The key switch is your likely culprit as virtually EVERY accessory passes through contacts on the key switch (gm didn't have relays)  The assembly is easy to access, and you may find a lump of melted plastic with burned contacts at high amperage connections at the key switch.  James

[joeinbcs]

Thanks for all the help.
I so have a test light and I have power at the solenoid connection. I was advised to check for power at the coil next, but I have not been able to detect power at the positive terminal on the coil.  I'm wondering if I can run a jumper directly from the battery to the coil and see if the electric stuff works?  I suppose this would isolate the problem to the wiring harness from the solenoid to the coil?  I haven't found any fusible links, but the wiring looks like Bubba may have been in there..LOL.
Thanks for the suggestion to check the ignition.  I will do this today and see what I find.
Really appreciate all the help!  Joe

[TJ Hopland]

If you have nothing else working including headlights I would not be looking at the ignition switch.

I can't quite see the logic in checking at the coil since you are saying nothing else is working.  The system is like a tree with the battery being the trunk.  Things like the coil are the tips of the branches. You are saying all the branches appear to be dead so you need to start where there is life and work your way up from there.

I don't think jumping power to the coil would be a good idea at this stage. That could end up backfeeding the entire car electrical system through a wire only meant to run the coil.  Its a resistor wire to further limit it.  Your jumper also would not likely be up to the task and that is assuming there isn't a massive fault that is still shorted out that caused the normal path to blow/fail in the first place. 

You need a full proper electrical diagram for this thing along with possibly the manual to help you know where the stuff on the diagram is located.  I found a partial diagram showing the starting/ignition part of the system.  It does confirm that it is the 3 link system that was used through the 70's.  It also confirms there is what looks like maybe a 10? pin rectangular connector involved, possibly at the bulkhead/firewall?  Based on what goes through the connector and what doesn't I'm pretty sure that is where it is. 

At the starter fat terminal there are 3 link wires.
-dark green 18awg fusible link wire that splices into a red 14awg wire this is noted at going to the headlight switch. 
-black 16awg link to red 10awg, note says fuse box
-black 16awg link to red 10awg, shows it going to the ignition switch

All 3 of those are fusible links at the starter then splice to regular wires that then go to that bulkhead connector.  The splices are a fat plastic inline thing. That starter harness also should have a violet and yellow wire in it. 

Now that we know that this is indeed how the system is supposed to work you know where to start looking.  And it is 3 feeds so if NOTHING is working the problem has to be in the starter area otherwise maybe the headlight would still work or maybe interior lighting or something. All 3 of those wires would have to have been damaged at the same time to have the fault be further away from the starter.  Could that happen?  Sure but doesn't seem likely that all 3 would go at exactally the same time while you were driving even if you blew out an exhaust gasket or a wire support broke and they fell on the manifold, 1 maybe 2 but all 3 in that short of a period of time? 

And this is assuming its still stock.  I have seen and we have had it documented here where people could not figure out this 3 feed system so they start putting jumpers in various places to sort of get things working again for a while.  Not that long ago someone here had all sorts of wacky stuff going on I think a mid 60's car and they finally removed the fuse box and found someone had installed a jumper wire on the back that had finally failed. 

Find that bulkhead connector and look for those 2 fat red wires along with a little smaller red, those are the 3 feeds from the starter.  I'm guessing due to age or hackery your issue is gonna be in that area.  Someone did some sort of hack repair down there that has caused all 3 to fail at the same time.  You can buy link wire on little spools from parts stores.  18 awg for the headlight and 16 awg for the other two.  You can also buy little spools of the regular wire 10awg and 14.  While you are there probably pull that connector apart and make sure its clean and no signs of heating.  Its proabbly packard 56 pins which are easy to find and replace.     
 

[joeinbcs]

If you have nothing else working including headlights I would not be looking at the ignition switch.

I can't quite see the logic in checking at the coil since you are saying nothing else is working.  The system is like a tree with the battery being the trunk.  Things like the coil are the tips of the branches. You are saying all the branches appear to be dead so you need to start where there is life and work your way up from there.

I don't think jumping power to the coil would be a good idea at this stage. That could end up backfeeding the entire car electrical system through a wire only meant to run the coil.  Its a resistor wire to further limit it.  Your jumper also would not likely be up to the task and that is assuming there isn't a massive fault that is still shorted out that caused the normal path to blow/fail in the first place. 

You need a full proper electrical diagram for this thing along with possibly the manual to help you know where the stuff on the diagram is located.  I found a partial diagram showing the starting/ignition part of the system.  It does confirm that it is the 3 link system that was used through the 70's.  It also confirms there is what looks like maybe a 10? pin rectangular connector involved, possibly at the bulkhead/firewall?  Based on what goes through the connector and what doesn't I'm pretty sure that is where it is. 

At the starter fat terminal there are 3 link wires.
-dark green 18awg fusible link wire that splices into a red 14awg wire this is noted at going to the headlight switch. 
-black 16awg link to red 10awg, note says fuse box
-black 16awg link to red 10awg, shows it going to the ignition switch

All 3 of those are fusible links at the starter then splice to regular wires that then go to that bulkhead connector.  The splices are a fat plastic inline thing. That starter harness also should have a violet and yellow wire in it. 

Now that we know that this is indeed how the system is supposed to work you know where to start looking.  And it is 3 feeds so if NOTHING is working the problem has to be in the starter area otherwise maybe the headlight would still work or maybe interior lighting or something. All 3 of those wires would have to have been damaged at the same time to have the fault be further away from the starter.  Could that happen?  Sure but doesn't seem likely that all 3 would go at exactally the same time while you were driving even if you blew out an exhaust gasket or a wire support broke and they fell on the manifold, 1 maybe 2 but all 3 in that short of a period of time? 

And this is assuming its still stock.  I have seen and we have had it documented here where people could not figure out this 3 feed system so they start putting jumpers in various places to sort of get things working again for a while.  Not that long ago someone here had all sorts of wacky stuff going on I think a mid 60's car and they finally removed the fuse box and found someone had installed a jumper wire on the back that had finally failed. 

Find that bulkhead connector and look for those 2 fat red wires along with a little smaller red, those are the 3 feeds from the starter.  I'm guessing due to age or hackery your issue is gonna be in that area.  Someone did some sort of hack repair down there that has caused all 3 to fail at the same time.  You can buy link wire on little spools from parts stores.  18 awg for the headlight and 16 awg for the other two.  You can also buy little spools of the regular wire 10awg and 14.  While you are there probably pull that connector apart and make sure its clean and no signs of heating.  Its proabbly packard 56 pins which are easy to find and replace.     
 

Thanks a lot for the detailed roadmap! I'll get started and report back. 

[joeinbcs]

So, evidence of Bubba's fixes.

I noticed a not very correct looking red wire going through the firewall just above the brake booster (pic 1).  it is spliced into a harness near the center of the firewall (pic 2).
Under the dash it is spliced into two red wires at the rear of the ignition switch.  Thoughts?
Nothing burned or disconnected at the switch as far as I can tell.
Now, got to get under the car for more investigation...

[joeinbcs]

A few more pics.  Bubba everywhere..LOL.
Pics of the connections to the solenoid:  two red together, one red alone, positive battery cable.  Smaller stud has the white wire that I believe is spliced into the wiring harness in the last pic, taken from the engine bay side.  Black cable attached to the other side of the solenoid (hard to see in the pics).  Lotta janky looking wiring, but nothing obvious to my eye.

[dn010]

Edited post since I see you've got power at the solenoid. Did you check if you have anything going to the fuse block? I would assume not since nothing is coming alive but worth a shot testing. Also, instead of using a test light, try a volt meter to see how much power you're getting, make sure your battery terminals are clean.

[joeinbcs]

That wiring looks awful close to the exhaust, make sure it is not touching and shorted. While down there, put a volt meter on the solenoid connections and see if you're getting a reading. I'd probably test battery voltage and then clean the battery terminals first.

Wiring is actually a couple inches from the exhaust.  I'm getting power at the terminal, and from each of the red wires attached to it as well.  I cleaned the battery terminals first thing, so good there.  Thanks!

[TJ Hopland]

You said 'and from each of the 3 red wires'.  Where you checking those at?

One issue is I see is it appears as if the fusible link wires are gone so nothing is fused here.  I say that because red isn't a standard color for fusible link wire.

You don't have a clear shot of it but what I can see of the yellow insulated lug at the starter with the red wires in it doesn't look that great plus that is just a 10awg lug and its in theory got 2 #10's and a #14 in it?  Or are there 3 of those yellow lugs there?  That raises a bunch of workmanship questions right there plus the rest we can see plus the apparent fact that they just happily bypassed all the protection. 

That red wire through the firewall is for sure a sign of hacking by someone that didn't want to take the time to actually figure out how things worked and what the problem was.  One of the 2 #10 red wires that goes through that connector goes to the ignition switch and splits into 2 #12 reds that then go to the back of the switch, looks like side by side.

Can you find that bulkhead connector?   Looks like its probably rectangle and about 10 pins.  I would want to find and inspect that to see if maybe that is where the original problem was at some point that caused someone to add that other wire.  IF everything looks alright there I would start inspecting the harness back to the starter and decide if and how much of it can be saved. With no fuses its possible, maybe even likely that its been overheated and damaged. 

For sure I would be replacing the fusible link wires down at the starter.  If there is good regular wire past that to that bulkhead connector then splice on but if things look rough there I would be considering new wire all the way to the bulkhead connector. 

Under the dash I would get rid of that extra wire that is spliced on and put things back to stock style which may mean replacing the wire and connector in the bulkhead all the way to the ignition switch.