Maintenance Debate

[Robert Donnelly #15552]

Folks,

Maybe this topic has been posted before, but Id really like to know how many of you have Cadillac daily drivers and have them maintained at a Cadillac dealer, versus doing your own maintenance or taking it to an independent mechanic.

For 9 years I faithfully took my 92 Coupe DeVille and then after that my 95 Eldorado to a Cadillac dealer for all routine maintenance.  My latest Cadillac is a 2001 Eldorado Touring Coupe and for the first time Im seriously considering taking it to an independent mechanic (someone who I know is very good and I trust).

The reason I am thinking about the switch is pure and simple - COST!!!  The Cadillac dealer is charging an arm and a leg for routine maintenance, and it seems like it is now bordering on ridiculous.  My last oil change was $62.  Prior to that, they suggested replacing the hoses on my 95 Eldo and gave me an estimate of $600.

I dont  mind paying a LITTLE more for routine maintenance at a Caddy dealer, but dont those costs seem a little excessive?  Is there a reason why an oil change on a Cadillac should cost $62???

Id like the pros and cons as you see them, and would be most interested in hearing whether or not Im being penny-wise and pound-foolish.

Look forward to the usual great advice from my fellow Cadillac fanatics!

Regards,

Bob Donnelly
CLC #15552

[Rusty Shepherd CLC 6397]

If I were you, Id take your car to a competent mechanic for routine things like oil changes,coolant system service, spark plug replacement, and belts and hoses and take it to a Cadillac dealer for computer-related problems that require specialized diagnostic equipment that will likely only be available there. As youve discovered, its just too expensive to use a dealer for normal maintenance. Youre paying technicians who are specially trained in all the complicated systems in modern cars to do old-fashioned mechanic work.

[Randall McGrew CLC # 17963]

I have a daily that is Cadillac.  I have been trying to find a mechanic for it but its hard.  I cannot take my car to the local Caddy dealer cause they dont know how to set a carburator let alone do something like frontend work.  There is one in Denver that is a supporter of the RMRCLC, and they are great but costly.

I see no reason to spend the bench charge for an oil change, belt changes etc.. I do those myself.  If I have to do it, I try to find someone to do it for a lighter cost which is usually made up by the parts.  Im not complaining...its hard to run a small shop.  Last time it cost me $2000 for a re-do on the brakes cause a great shop tried to save me money.  Pay now...pay later...but certainly you will pay.  

[densie 20352]

  I dont let anyone touch any of my cars, for anything.  That is one of the main reasons why Im opposed to emissions testing.  Some idiot gets under the hood of my car, and I feel like shooting him for touching it.

  My new car, I dont care what anyone does to it because its garbage anyway, but my 92 truck and my 76 hearse, no one else touches them.  Not even for paint and body, or upholstery.  I do it all.

-densie

[Bret Scott (CLC 21765)]

Hi, Bob-

Not entirely an easy question to answer, as it somehow depends on how finnicky you are about the origin of the replacement parts, the familiarity of the service technician with Cadillacs, and the quality of repair information your technician has availble to him/her.  

If your mechanic plans to use genuine GM parts, then I suspect the cost delta for repairs will get small.  If this doesnt matter to you, then theres probably some money to be saved.  For example, $62 seems excessive for an oil change, but I paid nearly that amount when I last specified the oil and filter brand to one of my neighborhood oil change huts.
 
Ive since sold my 95 Eldorado, but while I had it, I performed most of the repair work myself.  The engine compartment is chocked full of gadgetry, and while not difficult to understand, it is time-consuming to repair/replace things.  There were some things that had to be done by the dealer because of the need for special service tools and/or knowledge.  For most repairs, the Cadillac dealership refers to a standard rate for the number of hours it may charge for any given repair, and I believe (but am not entirely certain) that the rate per hour of service is set regionally, if not nationally.  So, if they estimated the hose replacement at $600, they likely used their rate guide to estimate the number of hours it would take to perform each procedure, plus charged you full price for genuine GM parts.  Your mechanic may not use a rate guide for major repairs, and so you may do better here.  Of course this may also mean that your mechanic may be surprised by the amount of time it takes to do repairs on your car, and your estimates may change.

Also, in theory, you should be able to have any dealer pull up the service history of your vehicles, including oil changes, if they were all done at a Cadillac dealership.  This can be a useful verification tool at time of sale.  If you are in the habit of keeping all of the service receipts, this may not be of any value.

On a similar note, the dealer can check for silent campaigns that may be related to your vehicles ailment, and may determine that the fix is covered by the General.  You can always call the toll-free Cadillac number to make sure none of your cars have any outstanding recalls/campaigns of the not-so-silent type.

If you decide to take your car to an non-Cadillac repair center for anything other than tires, lubrication and what-not, I recommend making the investment in a personal set of service manuals, assuming your mechanic doesnt already have them.  The reality is that there is very little in your 2001 ETC that isnt computer-controlled, and knowing the diagnostic trouble codes will make solving problems at your mechanic a lot easier.  I see these on eBay rather frequently, and they can be purchased new from Helm, Inc. (be prepared for sticker shock!)

Hope this helps,

Bret Scott
57 Series 62 Coupe
68 ELdorado

[Rusty Shepherd CLC 6397]

Youre right about virtually everything in a late-model Cadillac being controlled by computers and this includes things that not only dont need to be computer-controlled, but would be better if they werent.  An example: On my 96 Deville and 97 Seville, the interior lights were controlled by the Twilight Sentinel system.  I guess their reasoning for this was that in bright daylight when you dont need the interior lights to come on, they dont, and this might prolong the life of the interior bulbs.  The very annoying downside to this is that if you drive your car from bright daylight into a dark garage and then open the door, the TS system does not react quickly enough to cause the interior lights to come on unless youre patient enough to sit still for 1-2 minutes. I never was (and doubt anyone else would be) and had to turn the interior lights on manually in order to see well enough to retrieve whatever I wanted to take from the car. Fortunately, the battery drain protection system (computers again)would turn the lights off after 20 minutes or so as it was very easy to leave them on.

[Todd Rothrauff]

Robert:  The type and quantity of oil will influence the price of the LOF.  I believe your ETC should take 8 quarts.  Did the dealer use Mobile 1?  If so, that would be about $40 just for the oil.  I agree with the other posts - $62 seems excessive for a normal oil change.  

Rusty:  I agree.  An independent garage, or even a "Kwikie Lube" place would work fine for routine maintenance AS LONG AS THE JOB IS DONE CORRECTLY AND ACCURATELY.

Randall:  What in the world went wrong with the aformentioned "re-do on the brakes" that would cost $2000, (especially in a vehicle with no ABS, Traction control, active suspension, etc.)??

Denise:  Im assuming you are referring to your "garbage" Grand Marquis that you have referenced in other posts.  Im curious to know if you hate the car because it is problematic/unreliable, or do you hate it because it is not like your older cars.  The Crown Vic/GM platform is generally problem free.

Brett:  You are correct when you say that the dealer has access to open recalls.  I am a Ford Tech.  Every vehicle that goes through the Write-up area is checked automatically through the Ford computer system for service history, open campaigns, etc.  Also, as a technician, I have access to "service messages."  If Ford notices a pattern with a certain problem, they will post a message (think of it as a If-a-customer-has-x-concern,-here-is-a-possible-cause message - extremely helpful!).

Happy Motoring,

Todd

[Randall A. McGrew CLC# 17963]

Well Todd...that is a long, painful story.  Suffice it to say it was my fault.  My Eldo has disc brakes all round, with a very odd rear calipers that are a bear to find.
I had to have a lot of work done to correct the problems I caused.  Labor and all that...$2000.  Wa.  Hoo.

[densie 20352]

   Can you imagine a 2004 being a collectors item, or even a clean daily driver, 40 years from now?

   I cant.

-densie

[denise]

Denise: Im assuming you are referring to your "garbage" Grand Marquis that you have referenced in other posts. Im curious to know if you hate the car because it is problematic/unreliable, or do you hate it because it is not like your older cars. The Crown Vic/GM platform is generally problem free.

   Somebody told me that they were tired of hearing about how much I hate my new car and to shut up about it, so Ill try to make this brief.

   It only has 17k miles on it.  Nothing major is broken yet, but I say that it is garbage because:

   The steering growls and hisses at me when I try to park it, and its hard to steer (subject already beaten to death).  The stereo has lousy sound, and it eats a CD every now and then.  The windows rattle.  The rear view mirror slips out of its bracket and vibrates around.  The ride is very rough, and low-pitch noise is loud on bumpy roads.  The drivers seat feels lumpy, like an old chair that the Salvation Army wouldnt take.  One of the rubber chrome-look trim pieces fell off.  There isnt enough legroom or elbow room...it feels like sitting in a small plastic cube.  It sounds like a Japanese car, with the tee-hee-hee starter noise, and the tapping and vibration from the engine.  The door panels dont cover the whole door, so there is a big gap around each one.  The switch panels are covered with some kind of coating that looks like vinyl dye, and its starting to come off.  The ashtray is a rickity plastic thing that sticks when you open and close it.  The glove box is tiny, and almost impossible to reach from the drivers seat.

    Umm...I said I would make this brief, didnt I?  OK, Ill stop.

-denise

[Mike #19861]

 I would think it OK to have your car serviced at an independent shop so long as they are competent and familiar with your car. Also, purchase the shop manuals as recommended for the use of your chosen mechanic. It is doubtfull that he will have them.

 Dealers are expensive, and GM, and oyther brands have systematically eliminated many service procedures your cars used to need. This was the bread and butter of the service dept. These days they have to cook up new service procedures to pad the bottom line. Many are not really necessary.

 They are required to carry many essential tools and train their techs, this as a condition of their franchise. This is costly. The techs are subject to the flat rate system wherin you get paid a certain amount no matter how fast or slow the job is done. GM has consistently eroded this so that the tech is hard pressed to make a living these days. Cadillac is amoung the worst offenders here. So, they have to "recommend" these services to make for a decent living.

 I feel the dealer as we know it will have to change. The routine services that are so well performed economically but these chain lube shops are really cutting into their business. I feel they will have to offer this similar sort of service at a competitive rate, and have a separate area or facility for more involved work.

 I worked in this environment for 10 years at a Cadillac dealer, and I speak from experience. I return occasionally only to find that the guys are less than enthusiastic about the conditions. They have had to lay off mechanics, unheard of in this day and age of shortages in the skilled trades. This as a result of the changes that are taking place in the service industry and the erosion of the frequent servicing of new cars.

  Mike

[Rob Gerace #16100]

Hi Denise,
  I know one of your complaints about the 04+ full-size Fords is the switch to rack and pinion steering.  I can tell you first hand, that with the new steering system, you no longer have to turn the steering wheel all the way to the right to get the oil filter out.  The 03 and earlier recirculating ball types have the pitman arm right underneath the oil filter with no room to manuever the filter out.    

Theres nothing more frustrating than raising one of the previous models all the way up in the air, before realizing that you have to lower it all the way back down to unlock the steering wheel and turn it to the right.  

I know this wont overcome your disappointment with the car, but it is ONE good thing about the new steering system.  

Rob
66 SDV
 

[Todd Rothrauff]

Hello Denise,

I understand from your description of your cars issues why you would be unhappy.  Some of what you are describing is not a mechanical defect, but an engineering problem, which we as technicians cannot fix.

However, I did some research, and discovered the following messages.  I am assuming that these messages have already been checked (because that is what technicians are supposed to do).  But, just in case they havent .  .  .

TSB 05-02-04 deals with an engine vibration at idle.  A new PCM calibration is available to address this concern.

TSB 04-07-06 deals with a rattle in the dash area.  I know you said that the windows rattle.  But, I have seen rattles come from the most unlikely places.

TSB 04-02-01 deals with a knock type noise during cold start up.

Some of these may not apply to your vehicle.  But, it cant hurt to ask.

Your dealer can access other service messages from your vin number.  This should also be done EVERY TIME you come in for a warranty concern.

Thanks for letting me ramble.

Todd

[densie]

  Thanks!  Ill ask if they can fix any of this stuff.  I was going to ask about the vibration and the knock, but I just assumed that they would blow me off like they did with the steering.

-densie

[Randall McGrew CLC # 17963]

Perhaps not...I can see them being modified in extremis by the likes of Jesse James.
Or hopped up for racing like most late model Hondas by todays rodders.

Quite honestly, I can easily foresee collecting as we do, declining though not disappearing.  There will always be lovers of old things like cars but at some point our environment and resources may mean restrictions of use and ownership.  Who can really tell?  Most of the cars we love are rapidly being priced out of the range of the common man or woman.  And as our required work hours increase in order to maintain our life styles, what time will we really be able to assign to this hobby?
Obviously there will always be those who do.  And that is good enough for me.

[densie 20352]

  Oh no, lets dont increase our required work hours!  Better to come up with more efficient ways to do things, more production, less effort, more free time.

  How much time, though, could I spend maintaining my 2004, if I were inclined to make it a collectors item?  We took it to Jiffy Lube and found out that it had no lube points.  Does this mean that its so well made that the parts will last forever without lubrication, or that everything is designed to wear at the same rate so that it will be all spent when it goes to the crusher at 150k miles?  Only time will tell.

-denise