Why the fate of special Cadillacs

[Johnny #662]

I recently had a discussion with club members at a recent club function, as to how and why "special" Cadillacs such as the 53 Eldorados and 50s Broughams end up in junkyards!  I think the 50s Cadillac were the golden age of Cadillacs as far as ownership.  To be sure there have been other years that have been just as good and better, such as the multi cylinder cars.  I just wonder how the "special" Cadillacs of the 50s ended up rusting away and sharing space with Chevys, Fords and Lincolns.  I would think that these cars, would have been given special treatment and attention for what they were.  Its somewhat hard for me understand how they could be thought of as just another Cadillac, or worse yet, "just a car".  I would be interested to know the story behind some of these cars, when they were owned by their last owner before be sentenced to the scrap heap.

[Richard Sills - CLC #936]

This is an interesting and thought-provoking question.  My observation is that all cars go through a low point in their value -- perhaps between eight and fifteen years of age -- when they are too old to be considered late model cars, but too recent to be of interest to most collectors.  During this period, the car is often in the hands of its third or subsequent owner, whose financial means are far more limited than the person who bought it new.  The car is in great danger of being abandoned or scrapped if it needs some mechanical repair that is beyond the financial capability of its owner, or if it suffers an accident (even a minor one) that causes an insurance company to "total" it because of its low market value.  

Johnny, you and I can remember seeing Cadillacs of the late 50s sitting on inner-city streets in Philadelphia in the late 60s and early 70s, with the air suspension shot and bumpers resting on the blacktop.  Collectors of the era would have turned up their noses at these cars, and the typical affluent new Cadillac buyer would have viewed these cars as clunkers -- even if they were Eldorados or Eldorado Broughams.

In retrospect, this experience is not much different from what happened to the grand classics of the late 20s and early 30s during World War II and the post-war period.  These great old cars often suffered the indignity of being turned into tow trucks or commercial vehicles because they still ran well, but were devoid of market value.  
 
On a number of occasions, I have bought a really well preserved Cadillac in the six-to-ten-year-old age bracket and then kept it for another 10-15 years, finally selling it at a time when it achieved the status of a collectible car.  I would like to think that I "saved the life" of many of those cars, figuratively speaking, by guarding and preserving them through the period when they were most likely to meet a demise.  

Richard  

P.S.:  The Eldorado Broughams took an especially long time reaching their proper value as collector cars because many collectors (unjustifiably, in my opinion) consider four-door cars undesirable.  The 59 and 60 Eldorado Broughams, which lacked the distinctive stainless steel tops but were even rarer than their 57 and 58 counterparts, were overlooked for a long time because at a glance they closely resemble 61 and 62 Sedan deVilles.

[Johnny #662]

Richard, your very insightful comments are greatly welcomed. I would agree with you that, eventually these cars hit a point where they sort of lost their uniqueness, and as you stated eventually ended up in the hands of someone that neither had the capital or desire to at least keep these future classics going.  I would find it very interesting to know the historys of some of these cars, from the time they were first purchased by their original owner, to how they ended up in a scrap heap.

Along these line of thought there was a very interesting film in 1964 called "The Yellow Rolls Royce". It showed the ownership of a particular RR with 3 owners.  The scenes showing the purchasing of the car by the original owner was really great.  They showed the car being delivered to the dealer under a special RR car cover.  When Rex Harrison as the Lord, makes the decision to purchase the car, the salesman, tells him that they still have the measurments of the Lords wife still on file, and they can make the proper seat adjustment.  Here is a synopsis

In this drama, from director Anthony Asquith, the lives and stories of three different people are linked together by their possession of an unusual car, a yellow Rolls Royce Phantom II. Lord Frinton (Rex Harrison) is a diplomat who purchases the exquisite auto as a gift for his wife (Jeanne Moreau). After Frintons horse wins the Royal Gold Cup, Lady Frinton incurs the Lords wrath when she is caught in the back seat of the Rolls with his underling John Fane (Edmund Purdom). In the 1930s, the car is bought by Italian gangster Paolo Maltese (George C. Scott), who is carrying on with the hatcheck girl Mae Jenkins (Shirley MacLaine). The two take a tour of Italy and see all the historic sights, but Mae is less than impressed. While Paolo is in the United States on one of his frequent hit-man assignments, Mae and a street photographer try out the back seat for comfort and carnal pleasure. Art Carney plays Paolos associate Joey. In the final episode, Gerda Millett (Ingrid Bergman) is the married American woman who buys the car in 1942. With Hitler attacking Yugoslavia the brave and brazen beauty helps fight the Nazis by smuggling Davich (Omar Shariff) across the border, and this duo also find themselves in the back seat for a roll in the Rolls. Davich shows his gratitude by shipping the car along with Gerda back to the United States.

[Bob]

Per my Cadillac commercial comment (I was pleased to see the 85 Seville Bustle back in the Punk rocker commercial.) why are 98percent of the Seville Bustle backs in the junk yard.  I have had three; drive em till they drop, but Im still looking for my next one, a real keeper, a triple white 85 .

Bob

I recently had a discussion with club members at a recent club function, as to how and why "special" Cadillacs such as the 53 Eldorados and 50s Broughams end up in junkyards!  I think the 50s Cadillac were the golden age of Cadillacs as far as ownership.  To be sure there have been other years that have been just as good and better, such as the multi cylinder cars.  I just wonder how the "special" Cadillacs of the 50s ended up rusting away and sharing space with Chevys, Fords and Lincolns.  I would think that these cars, would have been given special treatment and attention for what they were.  Its somewhat hard for me understand how they could be thought of as just another Cadillac, or worse yet, "just a car".  I would be interested to know the story behind some of these cars, when they were owned by their last owner before be sentenced to the scrap heap.

[Johnny #662]

"Per my Cadillac commercial comment (I was pleased to see the 85 Seville Bustle back in the Punk rocker commercial.) why are 98percent of the Seville Bustle backs in the junk yard. I have had three; drive em till they drop, but Im still looking for my next one, a real keeper, a triple white 85 ."

I think for the same reason most 82-85 Cadillacs are in the junkyard...........the infamous HT4100 engine!  It is just so sad that two of the most beautiful cars that Cadillac produced, the Eldorado and Seville, have the worse engine that Cadilllac ever produced!

[Bill Hedge 14424]

Bob:

I do not know if you saw Lars Knellers post on the for sale board on Monday, 11/20/06 10:56 which reads as follows:
 
"A local friend contacted Bill Hedge and me to come look at an 80 Seville he has for sale. It is a beautiful car, triple yellow, and in extremely good shape. It has 73000 miles, and the 5.7L Olds gas V-8, so I suspect it was sold new in CA. The paperwork it has shows it spent most of its life in AZ. The only imperfections Bill and I could find were a sagging headliner and the cloth on the sun visors. It has the factory wheels also and the touring suspension. Let either of us (Bills email is whedge@comcast.net and you can click on mine above) know if youre interested and we can get you in contact with the owner. Price is $5000 and located in LaPorte, Indiana"  (Half an hour drive from South Bend and one hour from Chicago.  

Although the car is not triple white, it is a real eye catcher and we both considered purchasing and probably would have had timing been different.  This car is too nice to be purchased by someone looking for cheap transportation and ruined.
 

[Bill Hedge 14424]

Richard:

Your response raises a logical next question.  What "modern" Cadillacs are going to be the collector cars of the future?  I am the owner of a 59 Sedan De Ville, and I am also old enough to remember the days when you could not give a 59 away!!  The 59s were derided as being gas hogs and garish (all true) and owned by the "fat cats".  No respectable young person would be caught dead in one!!  My how times have changed!!

I have heard it said many times that the modern cars are all going to be junk because of the electronics.  I know my opinion is probably a minority, but I say hogwash.  While it is true that there are a lot of electronics on the new cars, I am fairly sure that if the market is there, there will be someone or someones to make or repair the computers in the cars.  There is a whole generation out there that is growing up that is as familiar and comfortable with electronics as we are with some of our tools that we grew up using.

My picks of modern Cadillacs:
The Seville bustle back (referred to elsewhere in this thread), 79 Eldorado Biaritz that I was tempted to purchase at Hershey, any year Allante?, 89 to 93 Fleetwood.   With possibly the exception of the Allante, very, very nice low mileage examples of each of these cars can be purchased for $5,000.00 or less!!  In ten years, members of the club are going to be kicking themselves for not purchasing these cars when they are so cheap.  Actually, I am already thinking about the nice 79 Eldorado, the nice 91 white Brougham, and 80 Seville I let slip through my hands!!  Sigh!

[Rusty Shepherd CLC 6397]

Youre so right and this was brought home to me again recently in a post on the message board.  A man asked how much a complete
flathead V-16 with radiator and transmission would be worth. After reading it, I wondered what the circumstances were. Since there were just over 500 of those engines produced in 38,39,
and the first few months of 40 production and almost all of them went into cars, I would have guessed that any spare ones would have long ago gone into 38-40s Sixteens which are highly prized by collectors, sell for good money and have a high survival rate. If there were a spare one or two, surely they would have been in the hands of CLC members who would know their value. Several days after being asked about it by CLC late Sixteen club technician Brad Ipsen, the poster said his grandfather had owned and operated a garage for many years and in the mid-50s a man came in with a Sixteen sedan that was running poorly. His grandfather tore the engine down and found a bad piston.  He told the cars owner how much it would cost to repair it and the man said he didnt want to spend that much on it and just gave the mechanic the car as payment for tearing the engine down.  The mechanic removed the engine, radiator and transmission and, as unbelievable this seems in 2006, SOLD THE BODY FOR SCRAP and covered the engine with a tarp in the garage where it has remained for 50+ years. The man apparently realized that the engine was at least very unusual (if not valuable) because its almost certain that a Dodges flathead six would have gone to the scrap yard with the Dodge.

[Johnny #662]

Great story Rusty, goes along with what Mr. Sills, said about some of these cars ending up with a person, that didnt have the finances to keep them on the road.  Hard to imagine that there was a time, when a Cadillac 16 sedan, was "just a car". Hopefully others out there can supply more interesting stories such as yours.

With this discussion, came out the factor that many of these "special" cars also hold the status of being a "collector" carm which begs the question, "just what is a collector car".  In the broadest sense of the word, any car that a persons collects is a "collector" car, but which ones are the more widely desired and accepted as "true" collector cars.  I guess the real question is, "when did collector cars, become collector cars?".  Were there really that many car collectors in the 40s and 50s?  I think I would be safe to say, not as many as today.

My original question was based on the factor of cars that were so much different from the rest of the line, especially in price.
It was recently pointed out to me that 73 Eldorado convertible was cheaper then the original 53s!

[brian rachlin]

Think about what a 1988 Coupe or Sedan, or even an Eldorado is worth right now. Not too much, unless its a super low mileage car.

Now go back to 1975 or so.  I can remember 59 and 60 Cadillac convertibles changing hands for $500.00 to $1000.00, and most of them were really nice cars.  I also remember a 1960 Eldorado hardtop with AC and tri-power sitting abandoned in a local shopping center before it was towed away, presumably to a junk yard.

The huge big-fin Caddys were dated in those years, and the car collector hobby was made up of small numbers of fairly eccentric collectors, and as it is today, they went after the cars of their youth.  Brass era stuff, Model Ts and Model As, and or course the big classics of the late 20s and 30s, like Packard, Peirce Arrow, Cadillac, Lincoln and the like.

Hemmings Motor News was a small publication, divided into Ford, and Non Ford sections, and you really had to hunt through the ads to find things.  No internet, ebay, search engines, yahoo, or any of that was even a thought back then.

In the mid 70s, you could pick up cars for $25.00, $50.00, really cheap, as the mentality was still bigger, faster, newer, and usually dad drove the old junker to work at the factory, and when it got really tired, and rusty, he sold it to a kid, or a co-worker for $50.00 bucks.

If you think about Cadillacs, here is my take...

1.  The new car buyer of a Cadillac would tend to be a wealthy individual, who would usually keep the car for 2 to 3 years and trade it in on a new one.  If it didnt give him too much trouble, he would get another Cadillac, creating another new car sale for Caddy.

2.  The late model used Cadillac buyer would tend to be an upwardly mobile individual, who wants to appear to be "making it" for the friends and neighbors, and wants the glitz of a Cadillac, but cant or wont go for the new car price.  Nothing wrong with that at all, I have made many late model used Cadillac purchases, and think its the way to go. Eventually as the car is getting older, its time to move up again.

3.  Now the car is 6 or 7 years old, and the 2nd owner is looking to unload it, and there are probably a few minor issues with the car, but hey, its a Cadillac, and if it still shines, it will certainly find a new home.

4.  Owner number 3 (or 4) gets to a point with the car that we all face at some point.  Its only worth $"X", and it needs $$$ to pass inspection, so its "not worth putting any more money into it".  It will languish for a short while with a for sale sign on someones lawn, or at the corner gas station, until it catches someone elses eye, and so it goes, because its a Cadillac, and someone may want it.

I have this exact situation right now with a 1994 Seville sitting in my driveway.  We bought it as a 35,000 mile creampuff from a dealer.  Its pearl white, sunroof, loaded with every option, chrome wheels, heated leather, etc... BUT... My wife wanted to get something different a few years ago, and we were out looking for cars for our 16 year old son, and she fell in love with a white Firebird convertible, also a low mileage 1 owner car, so we bought it, and let our son drive the Seville.  He is now in college, and the car is sitting because the rear brake lines corroded to the point where they are leaking.  Its a $3000.00 to $5000.00 car at best on todays resale market, and my mechanic says "its not worth putting all the money into it to replace all of the metal and rubber rear brake lines".  I do most of my own work, and I thought that was crazy, but I looked under the car, a he is right.  Re-plumbing all of the metal brake lines would be a nightmare job, even on a lift, not to mention all of the little rubber lines, and they way it is snaked through the frame, body, and suspension.  Its a very complicated job, but I am considering making it my winter project this year.

Because.. Hey, Its a Cadillac, with a Northstar no less, and it still shines, and has chrome wheels.  So what if you cant drive it, Its a Cadillac!

Brian

[Johnny #662]

Brian, great synopsis on "The life cycle of a Cadillac".  Also all the great cars, I would imagine that most of us let "slip through our fingers" back when.  If we only knew then, what we know now!

[Johnny #662]

Richard:

Your response raises a logical next question.  What "modern" Cadillacs are going to be the collector cars of the future?  I am the owner of a 59 Sedan De Ville, and I am also old enough to remember the days when you could not give a 59 away!!  The 59s were derided as being gas hogs and garish (all true) and owned by the "fat cats".  No respectable young person would be caught dead in one!!  My how times have changed!!

I have heard it said many times that the modern cars are all going to be junk because of the electronics.  I know my opinion is probably a minority, but I say hogwash.  While it is true that there are a lot of electronics on the new cars, I am fairly sure that if the market is there, there will be someone or someones to make or repair the computers in the cars.  There is a whole generation out there that is growing up that is as familiar and comfortable with electronics as we are with some of our tools that we grew up using.

My picks of modern Cadillacs:
The Seville bustle back (referred to elsewhere in this thread), 79 Eldorado Biaritz that I was tempted to purchase at Hershey, any year Allante?, 89 to 93 Fleetwood.   With possibly the exception of the Allante, very, very nice low mileage examples of each of these cars can be purchased for $5,000.00 or less!!  In ten years, members of the club are going to be kicking themselves for not purchasing these cars when they are so cheap.  Actually, I am already thinking about the nice 79 Eldorado, the nice 91 white Brougham, and 80 Seville I let slip through my hands!!  Sigh!

I hate to be the pessimist here, but at best I think the "antique" car hobby is slowly on the decline, and doesnt hold the interest that is used to.  I base this on, I dont think the younger generation look at cars the way many of us more "veteran" owners do.  First of all more then half of the cars today are "trucks".  Having the use of or owning a car today, isnt as big a deal as it was back in the 50s and 60s.  Cars today dont have the "panache" today that they did back then, nor the seperate looks and distinctions.  As already stated, one of the biggest problems in collecting cars for the average Joe is the cost, mainly due to all the refinements due to modern technology.  Sad to say the day of the "shade tree" mechanic is almost over.

[Greg McDonnell CLC# 20841]

I have really enjoyed this thread!  Thanks to everyone for their input.  I too have found myself in a do I keep it or do I sell it? situation with a rather low mileage 98 SLS.  One of the strut sensors went out as well as the module that controls the electronic suspension system.  At the dealer this was going to be about a $2,500 repair (actually it all was going to be replaced).  I found a way around all that (a company in FL is going to rebuild the module and I found a sensor on a used strut for a fraction of what the new one was going to cost.  Im not out of the woods yet but I just hate to part with the car considering the fact it is virtually a fully loaded vehicle with about 39K miles and looks only gently used!  I think the car is worth keeping (at this juncture) so Im not ready to put a for sale sign in the window just yet.

As for which newer Cadillacs will be collectible, who knows?  I well remember persons referring to how tacky the finned Cadillacs were once they were no longer fashionable to drive.  Now, the fins are what bring the big $$$ at auctions around the country.  How things change!  LOL!  

For me, I like the first generation smaller Seville (75-79)and the bustle backed Sevilles that followed.  I also think the smaller Eldorados from 79-85 are great looking and will one day be sought after as a collectible Cadillac.  I own an 85 Toronado Brougham that is very nice-wouldnt think of parting with it.  Bought it for $5K from a client in 92.  The Broughams from the late 80s and early 90s were beautiful and ultra-luxurious inside.  Very comfortable and great road cars.  Id be surprised if they dont end up on the collectible list down the road as they get some age on them.  Of course, the Allantes will most likely always be in demand just because they are unusual and different, not to mention fun to drive and gorgeous!  As for the smaller Seville I mentioned earlier, I bought a low mileage, highly optioned (even has a moonroof) 77 Seville in a knockout color combo (Desert Rose Firemist with Claret leather and Claret vinyl roof).  It is a pleasure to drive and to just look at parked in my storage building.  Its a keeper as far as Im concerned!  

It will be interesting to see what actually turns out to be hot and whats not as the years pass.

Greg McDonnell

[Dick Heller]

1967 with no vinyl roof (Before its time)
1976 Bicentennial Convertible (Patriotic and the” LAST American Convertible”)
1978 Biarritz (Last of the Behemoths)
1979 Biarritz (Olds 350)
1985 Biarritz (Last year of a great body style)
2002 ETC (Last year of an Icon)

[Johnny #662]

Greg,

You story about the problem incurred with your electronic suspension system, first of all makes a good case for obtaining extended warranties, when available, on newer cars.  Also one of the reasons I feel as though the car collecting hobby, could be on the decline, or turn into a rich mans game.  Part of the fun of the hobby is being able to work on ones pride and joy.  Understand my point is more about the affordability of being involved in the hobby in years to come, and not so much the appeal and desirability of the cars today.

The situation with the 79-85 Eldos is one that I find interesting.  Being the owner of a 85 Eldo, I keep an eye on prices that are being asked for them.  Currently the price range for a really nice one is in the $7000-$10,000 range, something I find somewhat strange, considering the bad reputation the 82s to 85s have.  I wonder how many people are purchasing these cars, base on looks only.  I am part of the HT4110 group on Yahoo, and frequently a person will come on board and say, I just bought a car with the HT4100 engine, and found out about the problems they have.


The Allantes are also an unique situation.  I liked the Allante from day one, and hoped one day to have one.  I think the main problem with them was that they just werent marketed by Cadillac correctly, but thats a different story.  Anyway, the Allante much like 53 Eldos have the same problem in attaining parts, not so much availability as cost!  In talking to owners over the years and finding out some of the prices, it has discouraged me from pursuing one.

[Johnny #662]

1967 with no vinyl roof (Before its time)
1976 Bicentennial Convertible (Patriotic and the” LAST American Convertible”)
1978 Biarritz (Last of the Behemoths)
1979 Biarritz (Olds 350)
1985 Biarritz (Last year of a great body style)
2002 ETC (Last year of an Icon)

Interesting list.

You obviously have a penchant for cars that have the distinction of being "Last" of its breed.

Not to start a debate, while the 76 Eldo convertibles were announced as the Last American Convertible, history has shown it wasnt, not even the last Cadillac convertible.  You can still buy a brand new Cadillac convertible today.  The 76 Fleetwood, my personal favorite, beats a 78 Eldorado by 10 inches in length, and is 307 lbs heavier.

[Greg McDonnell #20841]

Johnny,

I couldnt agree more regarding the purchase of an extended warranty for these electronic laden vehicles of today.  I bought the 98 SLS in 02 with only 29,xxx on the odometer.  After doing some research, I bought the best extended warranty I could buy for the car but the maximum time I could purchase was 48 months.  The warranty expired in May of this year and the sensor/module both fried in September.  Typical...Oh well, I like the car, it still looks great and drives/handles wonderfully.  The susp. syst. problem is fixable, just not the conventional way. I told the service manager at the local Cadillac dealership of my plans to have the module rebuilt and he replied that AC Delco does not consider the part rebuildable but instead they see it as a throwaway part!  I guess so at a price of over $1K!!!!!!!  

Hmmm, didnt realize the engines in the Eldos were so problematic.  I have an Olds 307 in my 85 Toronado and it hasnt given me any problems (yet).  Id better not brag or something will break tomorrow!  I still love those Eldos from 79 thru 85.  Can the Cadillac engine be swapped for the 350 Olds engine?  Is it any better/less problematic?

Greg  

[Johnny #662]

[ have an Olds 307 in my 85 Toronado and it hasnt given me any problems (yet). Id better not brag or something will break tomorrow! I still love those Eldos from 79 thru 85. Can the Cadillac engine be swapped for the 350 Olds engine? Is it any better/less problematic? Greg ]

I think the problem with the engines of the 79-85, Buick Rivieras, Olds Tornados, and Cadillac Eldos and Sevilles, is just limited to the Cadillacs with the HT4100 engine.

For information about swapping to a Olds 350 I refer you this website.  Cory knows every little nuance in making the swap.

http://www.eldocountry.com/eldo/swap.html TARGET=_blank>http://www.eldocountry.com/eldo/swap.html

[Johnny #662]

[Oh well, I like the car, it still looks great and drives/handles wonderfully. The susp. syst. problem is fixable, just not the conventional way. I told the service manager at the local Cadillac dealership of my plans to have the module rebuilt and he replied that AC Delco does not consider the part rebuildable but instead they see it as a throwaway part! I guess so at a price of over $1K!!!!!!!]


When you think about it, spending a thousand dollars on a repair on a car that a person really likes and is still relatively new, is quite cost effective, when you consider the price you would have to pay for a new Cadillac.

[Breg McDonnell #20841]

While were on the subject of lasts AND on the subject of collectible Eldorados, the 66 model is described in one of my Eldorado reference books as being considered one of the most elegant and simple designs ever to come out of Cadillac studio.  It is the LAST rear-wheel-drive Eldorado and the LAST Eldorado convertible of the Sixties. Some see it as a gussied up Deville convertible.  I happen to own one and see it as being a very special and rare car.  Only 2,250 were built.  Probably a third are still around today.  No it doesnt have the value of the finned ones that came before it, but as time passes, it is gaining on them (little by little).  One just sold on Ebay a couple of weeks ago for $33,300.  The 67 Eldo was beautiful (I own a 68 so I need no convincing of that body styles beauty), but the simple elegance of that last Sixties Eldorado convertible should not be forgotten...

Greg
Proud owner of a Cobalt Firemist 66 Eldo (just received its Senior AACA badge)