1961 Cadillac Restoration: Sweating for the wedding?

[Caddyholic]

did you pour a little gas  in the carb? if all else is good it should pop for a little while.

[savemy67]

Hello Andrew,

One way to test a fuel pump is to disconnect the fuel line at the carburetor, and crank the engine to see if fuel spurts out of the line.  Be sure you have a catch-can for the fuel, and that the engine won't fire (ground the coil wire).

As to why the car won't start, there may be a number of reasons.  Your post mentioned the fuel filter bowl was empty.  Most likely, the carburetor is bone dry as well.  If your carburetor has a bowl vent, you may be able to fill your carburetor by using an ear syringe to fill the carburetor through the vent.  Check your shop manual's section on the carburetor.

Your post says you have spark.  Be sure to check that the distributor is not 180 degrees out of alignment.  Assuming that your engine mechanical parts are correctly installed (timing gears aligned, compression OK), your no-start could simply be a matter of getting fuel through the carburetor.

Christopher Winter

[David Greenburg]

If you've got spark, I would assume it's a fuel issue until proven otherwise (fuel pump working, gas in carb when you hit pedal).

[Dan LeBlanc]

Assuming those hoses are the ones from Fusick, the lower radiator hose should be installed so that the markings are visible from underneath the car (unless they changed the placement of their stamp).  I would venture to guess that your lower hose is installed backwards.

[Andrew Trout]

Alright, an update:

It didn't start, but we're closer

Got out there last night. We pulled the valve covers, spark plugs, and distributor cap and checked the timing. When we were at 5º before TDC, the distributor looked to be at #8, not #1.

Pulled the distributor out, dropped it back in and it looks to be lined up correctly.

Put everything back together, checked spark. We've got spark on #1

Put plug #1 in, attempt to start.

Fuel pump is working, glass bowl fills up.

We get nothing but the starter, and then a cough or sputter.

!!!!

It did something!

We try a few more times, and get another cough/sputter. But that's it.

My main concern now is either flooding the engine and/or fouling the spark plugs with too much fuel. Any suggestions? Is it the carb not pulling in enough air/fuel? Is there some adjusting we should do with it?

[James Landi]

Pull a couple of plugs... if it's flooded, the plugs will be wet... another issue, do you have the wire from the starter solenoid to the distributor connected on to the resistor correctly.  Your coil needs to have a full 12 volts when the engine is cranking--thus that wire takes the resistor out of the circuit.  If the wire is attached to the wrong side of the resistor, you'll get spark, by very often, a very WEAK spark.  It's easy to mis -wire that resistor.

[Andrew Trout]

I talked to my Dad last night: it's running!

My Dad fussed with the timing some more and was able to get it dialed in better. Right now it's running for about 20 seconds and then quitting due to a fuel hose falling off or not having the vacuum advance hooked up to the distributor. But we're in the ballpark now.

Thanks for all of the help and suggestions so far!

[Andrew Trout]

My Dad and I put the rear seat bench in, and the front seat as well for when we drive it to the body shop to have the carpet and remaining interior pieces installed.

My fiancée was out at the house as well, so I asked her to hop into the front seat with me for a quick photo. It was a little surreal for her as the Cadillac has always been in progress since we started dating.



Putting the driver's side tire on...



Back on four wheels (or tires) for the first time since late November 2011.



We're still fussing with the timing. My Dad bought a timing light, and also bought a wired starter motor trigger so we're both able to be looking at the engine while trying to start the car. My Dad was able to get it started on Friday, but Sunday we didn't have any luck. My Dad's going to call in some of his more mechanically inclined friends and see what they can do. We know it can start, it's just a matter of getting the car to start when we want it to start.

[Jon S]

Andrew -

That fuel pump supply line is still on the wrong side of the fan belt and could easily br severed by the engine fan blades!

[Andrew Trout]

Andrew -

That fuel pump supply line is still on the wrong side of the fan belt and could easily br severed by the engine fan blades!

The gas that's in the tank is old. It's been in the tank for 4+ years, and we don't want to use it. For starting and testing purposes, we're running the old soft line from the pump to a small gas tank next to the radiator on the inside of the core support. It's clear of the fan blades.

The new soft line runs from the hard line up to the pump, and is held in place close to the engine block by the clips on the water pump bolts like you pointed out it should be.

[Jon S]

The gas that's in the tank is old. It's been in the tank for 4+ years, and we don't want to use it. For starting and testing purposes, we're running the old soft line from the pump to a small gas tank next to the radiator on the inside of the core support. It's clear of the fan blades.

The new soft line runs from the hard line up to the pump, and is held in place close to the engine block by the clips on the water pump bolts like you pointed out it should be.

Yup - Just making sure.  Continued Good luck with the project!

[Glen]

Andrew, I don’t see an email for you.  Please send me a PM or click on my email link in my profile.  I want to make you aware of a potential problem. 

[Chuck Swanson]

Sounds like the timing is still off.  Are you moving the distributor as you attempt to start.  Mark the location where it started once too   You can also check the position of the wires in the shop manual, not just the firing order.  Have that timing light ready in case it starts again so you can dial it in. 

Also, you probably know, but don't crank the starter for too long at a time or you will burn it up.  You can also feel your battery cables to see if getting too hot.  Maybe 10 seconds of cranking at most at a time, let cool for a little while before next attempt.   

Good idea on getting someone mechanically inclined as you need to make sure you are at TDC on 1 before installing.  You didn't say you checked that before dropping in distributor. 

For example: 
Hook your timing light to #1 wire and power.
Pull the #1 plug and put your finger in the hole.
Crank the engine until it blows your finger out of the hole.

Chuck

[Andrew Trout]

Well, it's been a few weeks. Between going to weddings, planning my own, plus my fiancée's bridal shower I haven't had any time to work on the Cadillac. Thankfully my Dad's been able to work on the car in the mean time.



This is where we are with timing. It's pretty damn close. The car starts up very easily, so at this point we're comfortable saying "close enough" and will take another look at in the fall. Between summer heat and engine heat it gets very hot in the engine bay.



On the downside, now that the car is running on it's own without issue, we've found an oil leak in the timing chain cover. The photo is horrible, but it's easiest to see when the engine is running. It's on the driver's side, either where the timing chain cover meets the oil pan or where the timing chain cover, oil pan, and engine block all meet. My Dad saw this earlier and pulled the radiator and water pump to get the timing chain cover off, and then replaced the gaskets and reinstalled it. Still leaks in the same place.

Any ideas on what's causing it? Do we need more gasket sealant or less? Are there any magic tricks to getting the cork strip that runs along the bottom of the timing chain cover to seal properly?

It's really frustrating as we can't drive the car in this condition, it will run out of oil in a matter of hours.



But, regardless of that, the car is ready to head to the interior shop tomorrow morning on a rollback.

[savemy67]

Hello Andrew,

Nice to see the car out of the garage - looks great!

I noticed in the photo that there is a piece of cardboard under the engine with a puddle of what looks like oil.  Is that oil from the leak?  If that much oil is pumped/leaks out of the engine, so that the car runs out of oil, it sounds like there is something mis-aligned, and that the gaskets are not seating where they should.  Try probing the area with a paper clip to see if you can find a gap between the mating surfaces of the front cover, oil pan, and block.  Another item to check is whether your gasket set included the correct gaskets for these areas.

These multiple gasket joins can be a problem, but try to avoid using too much RTV in the event you have to resort to the "gasket in a tube".

Christopher Winter

[Andrew Trout]

Yes, we've got an oil leak around the timing chain cover. Not sure exactly where though. Good idea on using the paper clip. Do you straighten it out and drag the tip of the metal along the edge until you find a hole? 

[Dan LeBlanc]

Also check the condition of the shaft on the harmonic balancer where it goes in through the cover.  If it is badly worn, you can get a leak there also even with a new seal.

I believe to remove and replace the front cover correctly, the oil pan must be dropped also. 

[savemy67]

Hello Andrew,

I speculate that if you are losing enough oil so that the car runs out of oil in a few hours, you have a really big gap at a gasket mating surface, such that the oil leaking out should be visible.  The paper clip would confirm that there is a sizable gap in the gasket/mating surface (the paper clip can be straight or bent depending upon how easy it is to access the suspected area).  Also, if that much oil is coming out of the engine, it may be being pumped out, so it is important to try to find exactly where the oil is leaking.

As Dan mentioned, if the shaft on the balancer is worn, the front seal wont be effective.  However, if the leak was at that location, oil would be slung around the front of the engine bay due to the rotating balancer, which, if I understand your problem description correctly, is not the case.

Both the oil pan and the front cover are steel stampings.  Depending on what service was done to the engine over the last 54 years, the mounting bolts may have been overtightened, and or the stampings may have been deformed.  With such a big leak, I would probably drop the pan and remove the front cover and make sure the mounting surfaces are true, and that none of the bolt holes have been dimpled.  Any dimpling can be reversed by carefully using a large ball bearing and a socket, or a small ball-pien hammer and a socket to dimple the bolt hole in the opposite direction.   ....almost there....

By the way, you and your fiancee make a cute couple.

Christopher Winter

[James Landi]

Have you noticed any engine paint overspray on gasketed surfaces.  Incredible as it sounds, this condition can cause engine oil leaks even if the paint appears to be well adhered to the metal

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

I would be pulling the sump to see where the problem is.

These engines don't leak when using the proper gaskets, and using the proper procedure to fit them.

To do the job properly, I would suggest pulling the engine and put it on the engine stand where you can work on it and really see what is going on as you are pulling it apart.

Sounds like the front seal is not seated correctly.

Bruce.