Laurie's 1970 Fleetwood Brougham Restoration

[cadillac ken]

Water borne paint is just the basecoat. The clear is still solvent based. I do some painting with both and the solvent based sprays easier. Use the same line of base, clear, reducer  and activator. The difference in the quality of the clear is basically how long it lasts due to its UV protection.

Probably the best advice was already given.  Use what the painter likes. He has sprayed it in his booth and is familiar with the products flash times and when to recoat. Plus if there is a problem, he can’t blame it on “your paint”.
But the best of painters can spray just about anything you give them.

TC is spot on.  I would only add that you go with one of the better paint systems.  The higher cost of the product is due to the research the company invests in.  In my shop I use DuPont (now Axalta).  The Chroma base is a solvent base color and the clear I still like the #7779.  As TC said, the UV is your biggest enemy.  Despite the car may not see a lot of daily use in the sun, the better clears will last for 15 to 20 years.  I have done cars with the DuPont/Axalta paint system and they still look great from 10 years ago.

I would reccommend sticking with the same paint "system" throughout the job.  Primers, value shade sealers, base coat, and clear from the same company.   

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Crest lock cover w/wreath on decklid only. No other ornamentation.

Fleetwood lettering contained in lower right bumper insert panel which is body color.

[BJM]

Why is Clear Coat (CC) so necessary?  It's still paint so to speak, correct?  So it can still scratch, require buffing and/or wax.  I am not expert. 

I own 2 Reattas and dabble in Buick Reattas and there are a LOT with CC issues. I guess the paint is fine, but the CC issues make the cars look bad. 

Factory paint jobs had a certain level of thickness or coats. I assume Cadillacs received a "bit more" paint than a Chevy or Ford. But doing it now, why not just put on 2 more coats of paint for depth and protection and skip the CC ?  I am just asking.  What is the purpose of CC?

[Highwayman68]

Replacement vinyl top - another cheap out with eBay. What do you think of this? Remember this car will be a poser and not exposed to any extreme elements. Elk or Levant texture is correct?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1965-1970-Cadillac-Fleetwood-Vinyl-Top-4-Door-Sedan-Full-Top/371670316228?hash=item568946f4c4:g:lrkAAOxye3BRyCE4

Both vokes use a waterborne spray paint, period.

Thanks for reading! Laurie!

I had the vinyl top replaced on my 68 Fleetwood by a local auto upholstery shop in Pittsburgh. He recognized the grain of the pattern and was able to get an exact replacement. I paid $850 for parts and labor. On my 68 the vinyl stops short of the windshield and doors by an inch and has metal grain pattern molding at the edge of the vinyl with screws and clips that needed to be removed, painted and then replaced that added to the price.

Mark

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Clearcoat technology has improved considerably over the last 30 years. Delamination issues were common in early GM clearcoat finishes which began in 1985 model year.

The main benefit of 2 stage BC/CC is improved shine, color depth and durability that is far superior to the lacquer paint finishes of the past which required considerably more effort to maintain. 

Cannot bypass the clearcoat step because the (base) color coat does not have the necessary components for gloss. The process is designed as a system, the stages are formulated to work together.

[cadillac ken]

Why is Clear Coat (CC) so necessary?  It's still paint so to speak, correct?  So it can still scratch, require buffing and/or wax.  I am not expert. 

I own 2 Reattas and dabble in Buick Reattas and there are a LOT with CC issues. I guess the paint is fine, but the CC issues make the cars look bad. 

Factory paint jobs had a certain level of thickness or coats. I assume Cadillacs received a "bit more" paint than a Chevy or Ford. But doing it now, why not just put on 2 more coats of paint for depth and protection and skip the CC ?  I am just asking.  What is the purpose of CC?

The base color coat is just that, color only.  No gloss. No UV protection.  The clear coat is there to protect the color from fading and "seal" in the metallic, pearls, etc. that would be exposed to the elements.  Most of the Clear coat issues are for two reasons: improper bonding of the clear to the base coat or; UV deterioration.  But it's a system.  Base coat without the proper clear coat is simply not going to live long without the clear top coat.

Paint thickness with these new coatings is based on the manufacturers (of the paint products) specifications.  More coats isn't necessarily better. 

As a side note, I had a friend that was a Reatta owner and I could have sworn he said those cars were painted in Lacquer (?).  He owned a 1955 Corvette and had restored a 1955 T-Bird so he was a "car guy" and I'm sure he would have known this if it were true.  If so the clear coat may have been applied at some point over the Lacquer color and that is something that needs to be done with a special bonding agent if they did indeed use the newer Urethane clear over the OEM Lacquer.

To add you are correct in assuming that base coat is "paint".  In fact professionally available vinyl sprays (through automotive paint supply stores to the trade) is just that, base coat with a UV additive to it.  So It lives just fine on the interior without a clear coat but it is UV protected.

[TC]

Cars need clear coat (CC)for the reasons explained but to clarify. Many of our paints are metallic and you cannot  wet sand and polish single stage ( metallic paints (no CC) after painting. With single stage, (SS) the metallic particles are too close to the surface and will sand away. CC is a protective layer over the basecoat and is approximately 2-3 mils thick (factory). CC also offers the option of doing a "paint correction" which is a fancy name for a process to remove small scratches and car wash swirls by polishing with compounds and polishes. Usually less than .5 mils of CC is removed during this process and the paint can look swirl free and new again.

Regarding the mention of CC and problems. GM had issues when they switched from lacquer to BC/CC in the mid 80s. Where the cars are stored and climate are all factors to how long a CC will last and in the early years, the cars in the sunny states did not last long as ones say for example ones from Seattle (cloudy all the time).

If you see CC failures around trim it is possible what you are seeing is a repair not holding up. Most of ours cars are 20+ years old and many have hit something during this time. Peeling around the base of side windows aka beltline moldings are common after a repair due to the extra labor involved to remove this trim. So more often than not, the trim is not removed. This causes a poor bond of the CC at the trim. Super expert masking before painting can reduce future problems but not the same as trim removal.  Where you see CC failure, I would measure the paint with a paint meter to see if it is thicker on those areas indication extra coats of paint and a repair. This is of course if the panel was not replaced with a new panel. But surrounding panels to the repair will also show more paint from blending the repair. 

[P. Manoogian]

It was a day I was looking forward to for years. Since then and at other shows I have found that the color is especially noticed by women and the guys compliment it on how straight it is.

[Glen]

On my 68 ELDO and the three 68 69 70 Eldorados I parted out the fender letters were held on by bending the pins over.  The letters can be removed and re installed a couple of time before they break off. 

[cadillacmike68]

Pre drilled, pics below, and found the letters more reasonably priced at Caddy-Parts.com, muchos gracias to whom ever gave me the link. Now do I need the 'thingies' to hold the script in place? Don't have my body manual yet but its been shipped. Get used to the word "thingies" its my default noun when I don't know what I'm talking about. What size thingies?

Also a heads up on replica batteries.... restoration battery is not taking any orders and AAB doesn't list a 1970 battery. But batterycentralmall.com has them, at a price.

Laurie (see mods, I "try" to remember to sign all my posts!)

Until you get a "restoration battery", you can't go wrong with the correct size ACDelco batteries. 3-4 years free replacement on most and they fit correctly. All my cars have ACDelco batts and my 1968 has two.

The fenders, yes. that's where mine rusted 35 or so years ago. They should be taken care of before mounting the letters. The hold-ons, etc are sometimes called trim clips. The originals were at best single use, and a pain to get off. Maybe two small body nuts per letter - if they can be had in the small size needed would be easier to install and remove if needed. I wouldn't trust using only the double sided adhesive - You'll likely lose a few letters going down the road. I did!

[Cape Cod Fleetwood]

Hey guys, I appreciate all of your info SO MUCH, thank you!
Yes the car will be painted prior to the script going on, I was just hoping to get the correct 'thingies'
to hold on the script for when I drop the car off. Its going to a voke, one of 3.

I'll be getting the battery from batterycellmall.com, 6-8 weeks to delivery, which is fine. I don't know what's in it now for a battery, it starts...

Would the correct 'thingy' size be in the shop manual? Which has arrived along with the body manual and sales brochure.

Had a LONG chat with my mech today about the car. He said to get it painted etc before we start working on the engine. Minor stuff, changing ALL the fluids, filters, gaskets, complete tune up. He'll mount the Coker tires and install the battery at that time too.

Laurie!

[Cape Cod Fleetwood]

Thanks guys, really appreciate it. The vokes either "1 shot" or "2 shot". 1 shots are for the cars going to the used car dealers, the paint and clear coat are combined. 2 shots are for the nicer cars, paint, then clear coat. At least that's how I understood it...?
Laurie

[Cape Cod Fleetwood]

Crest lock cover w/wreath on decklid only. No other ornamentation.

Fleetwood lettering contained in lower right bumper insert panel which is body color.

YOU ROCK!  \m/   Thank you, Laurie!

[Cape Cod Fleetwood]

Anyone stuffing this gizmo under their distributor? Any reason to/not to?
Laurie?

[Roger Zimmermann]

For  some time, I had this system in my '56 Biarritz until the engine began to run bad. With the point I installed after removing the Pertronix, the engine ran much better.
Conclusion for me: Pertronix? never again.

[TonyZappone #2624]

Pertonix installed '36 Pierce-Arrow, '58 Cad, 47 Cad, 15 years ago.  Cars never ran better, and continue to run beautifully.

[V63]

There are two versions, red or black module. The red module is more resistant to failure.

This system is far from ideal, but overall I lean towards it over points. There is a noticeable improvement in performance.

I installed on a 68 472. It’s nice too that the engine appears authentic with it.

One part that needs improvement is the pertronix plastic rotor mounted trigger ring...the magnets fall out. I removed the clear tape they had on the ring over the magnets and coated with clear epoxy.

Verify too, that you have full 12 volts to the coil at all times (by-pass factory coil resistance) ...or you will have problems.

You could also put a factory delco OEM HEI distributor from a 472/500 1974 and up. These offer excellent service, but are a much larger assembly than yours...might have conflict with your smog pump A.I.R tubing.

Investigate MSD they make a true HEI system, and there is a mild street version. This would be ideal but more costly.

In closing...motivating my adaptation to pertronix...The quality of replacement points is nearing junk.

[Jason Edge]

For my 1964 Cadillac Coupe de Ville with 429 engine, I ran the Pertronix Ignitor II ignition unit and Flamethrower II coil for 5+ years, and opted for the Pertronix Ignitor III and Flamethrower III when I rebuilt the engine in May 2012, and both the II & III series worked flawlessly, both are easy to install, especially the III series, ignitor tucks under the distributor cap, and you can get the flamethrower coils in black so it keeps the original look under the hood. As previously noted, you will want to run a full switched volt source to it and bypass the resistor, or resistor wire to coil.
ps. You can see a comparison between the I, II & III series on a Help Page on the 63/64 Cadillac Website at http://6364cadillac.ning.com/profiles/blogs/pertronix-comparison. You will want to look up the correct part #'s for your model year application. Here is a direct link to these items on the Pertronix site: http://www.pertronix.com/prod/ig/default.aspx

[Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373]

For me it wasnt the points. I had 2 condensors go bad within a few hundred miles. Both were new, right out of the box.
I just put in the base Petronix and I am running a stock coil on the 70. Will do the same on the 55 when I get to it.
Jeff

[76eldo]

My cars, at least for now, are still running points and condenser.  As far as the stock/purist part of the equation, if it's a mod the fits under the distributor cap and no one sees it, it's not an issue for me.  My reluctance is that I grew up with cars with points.  With points and a condenser you generally will not get a total failure that will leave you on the side of the road.  Electronics can and will do that.

Why introduce the potential for electronic failure into a system that has been virtually trouble free on cars for billions of road miles?

One reason is the dwindling availability of quality points and condensers.  You can still find NOS Delco points on ebay but the source of condensers is suspect.  NOS Condensers can be bad simply because of time sitting on the shelf.  Still, I am leery of an aftermarket electronic device for spark.

Brian