Any years Ethanol free fuel

[Cadman-iac]

Then you can check Gas Buddy.com  to see which station has the cheaper price.

Note: First thing in the morning and at lunch time, it's impossible to get near those ethanol-free pumps. The landscapers have them locked down tight filling up their equipment. Then they have to get ice, drinks, breakfast burritos and whatever. They don't hurry either.

Early Sunday morning is the best time.

 Lol!! I can get around the yard crews here, the few stations that sell ethanol-free fuel have a nozzle on every pump for it, so you can pull up to any pump, which is really nice.

 Rick

[Cadman-iac]

Are you in Maricopa?  I know theres a few places that sell race fuel, but everything around here is ethanol based. 

 No, I'm in Cochise County where they have to pipe sunlight in, lol!

 I know they sell race fuel at these stores too, my wife came home one day after filling up her car and didn't look at the receipt until then, she had filled up with race gas. Car ran good for a while after that.

 Rick

[Cadman-iac]

  Hey, it is legal to run ethanol-free gas in a newer car, isn't it?

 The lack of ethanol doesn't hurt the vehicle right?

 I wouldn't think it would, but I might be missing something here, so I thought I'd ask.

 Rick

[TJ Hopland]

Legal is an interesting question.  It does appear to be up to the individual states, guessing its like most things and the feds set a minimum but the states can go further if they choose.  I just spend some time banging around Minnesota statutes and all I can find on the subject relate to the selling side of things.  So far I have not found anything about any enforcement or penalties for say a gas station that is 'caught' letting someone use the fuel against what the label says.  Also nothing about any sort of penalty for the buyer.

Here is the section from the MN site:

Subd. 12.Exemption for collector vehicle and off-road use. (a) A person responsible for the product may offer for sale, sell, or dispense at a retail gasoline station for use in collector vehicles or vehicles eligible to be licensed as collector vehicles, off-road vehicles, motorcycles, boats, snowmobiles, or small engines, gasoline that is not oxygenated in accordance with subdivision 1 if the person meets the conditions in paragraphs (b) to (d). If the nonoxygenated gasoline is for use in a small engine, it must be dispensed into a can with a capacity of six or fewer gallons.
(b) The nonoxygenated gasoline must be unleaded premium grade as defined in section 239.751, subdivision 4.

(c) No more than one storage tank on the premises of the retail gasoline station may be used for storage of the nonoxygenated gasoline offered for sale, sold, or dispensed by the station.

(d) The pump stands must be posted with a permanent notice stating: "NONOXYGENATED GASOLINE. FOR USE IN COLLECTOR VEHICLES OR VEHICLES ELIGIBLE TO BE LICENSED AS COLLECTOR VEHICLES, OFF-ROAD VEHICLES, MOTORCYCLES, BOATS, SNOWMOBILES, OR SMALL ENGINES ONLY."

This notice must be posted at least two feet above the ground. A retail gasoline station that sells nonoxygenated premium gasoline as defined in section 239.791, subdivision 15, must register every two years with the director, or an entity appointed by the director, on forms approved by the director, the total amount of nonoxygenated premium gasoline sold annually.

[Oliver Betker]

I don't like leaving ethanol fuel in my vintage vehicles or equipment if not being used for several months so I fill up with "recreational" gasoline which is typically 91 octane (higher than what I need) but ethanol free and pretty common to find in Michigan. For any cars or equipment that I know may sit for long periods I use AvGas. At 100 octane, it is a bit high for most of my engines but the stuff doesn't get stale and doesn't varnish. I've never been impressed with StaBil - it might be okay for 6 months to a year. AvGas....5, 6, 7 years....not a problem.

Do you have any experiences or impressions that the high octane cause higher heat of the engine?
I could imagine that the high explosive fuel today burns a lot faster and heater than the old fuel decades ago.
Did you change your ignition timing while using 100 octane more to a later point?
I am always not sure about the old engins with using the very high octante fuel, because they have a low copression rate and need normally only 78 octane fuel, which is not longer available anymore.
Regards Oliver

[dn010]

Dan, are you up north in the cold?
I've been able to keep the regular ethanol fuel with Stabil for about a year, maybe a year and a half if I used enough Stabil, but I'm down here on the Mexican border where we seldom see snow. But I've screwed up and forgot to write down when I put fuel in some of these vehicles, and I almost ruined a new  engine in my 64 truck. After starting it I noticed it had a knock, and after some detective work with a borescope I found a couple of cylinders with fuel staining, probably from the varnish, as it's carbureted, and the heat was causing fuel to be pushed from the tank and it percolated out of the carb and into the
engine, and I hadnt noticed it for months. After running it for several hours and getting it hot, the staining was worn or burned off and the knock was gone.
Strangest thing I've ever run across.
But I need to flush the whole system and then use the ethanol-free stuff from now on.
I just wanted to know if it's worth the effort and expense, or if I should invest in Stabil stock.
Thanks for chiming in, I appreciate your input. Rick

I've been in Florida for the past 14 years now, about 30 minutes from Tampa. Wawa gas stations here all serve ethanol free so I'm lucky to be able to get it. It's the E85 that is hard to come by here (my 2019 F150 5.0 is flex fuel and runs best on the E85), only Thornton's gas stations sell that and I have two near me compared to the dozens of other stations. When we had back-to-back hurricanes a few months ago, I had to put ethanol free in the truck mixed with probably 1/2 tank of E85 and it did fine - ethanol free was all you could find for a while (no one wanted to pay for it, and when they closed the pumps, they lead you to believe ALL gas is out at that pump, you had to look at the ethanol free pumps specifically to see if the price was still showing, meaning there was still some of it left in it to buy! Funny the things you have to go through in desperate times).

I've experienced way too many rubber part failures, dirty carbs and dirty fuel tanks to continue with ethanol gas in my classics and small engines so to me it is worth the expense to get the ethanol free AND stabil. I even keep an 8 gallon fuel pack of ethanol free on hand but will cycle it into a car after about 3-4 months to keep things fresh, that is if I don't use it in a small engine but now that it is getting "cold" out, I won't have to do yard work until April.

I noticed you wrote you're in Cochise county- I used to live down there - first when I was stationed in Ft Huachuca and then I moved down the road to Huachuca City. I really do miss it there; those great drives to Tucson, Bisbee and Tombstone being one thing. We actually did see snow once on Ft. Huachuca, I think it was 2006, the entire base shut down because no one knew how to drive in the stuff. I was an MP so I had to be out on the road, I had just come from living in New York so it was no big deal to me. Anyway, enough of the walk back in time, but time really does fly by.

[Cadillac Jack 82]

Welp this topic brings up a very interesting point.  Failure of items due to ethanol.  I just had a mechanical pump fail on me right outside the grocery store.  Luckily O'Reilly 6 miles away had one last pump available.  I was able to swap them out with some cursing and get on my way.  What would cause a pump, which was only a year old, to suddenly fail?  Is ethanol that detrimental to rubber components?

[Lexi]

Welp this topic brings up a very interesting point.  Failure of items due to ethanol.  I just had a mechanical pump fail on me right outside the grocery store.  Luckily O'Reilly 6 miles away had one last pump available.  I was able to swap them out with some cursing and get on my way.  What would cause a pump, which was only a year old, to suddenly fail?  Is ethanol that detrimental to rubber components?

Very good question. I had my newly rebuilt engine equipped with a new fuel pump in 2019. It has been in there for about 6 years now. The fuel pump is still operational and not showing signs that it should be replaced. Do I know how much ethanol passed through my car in those 6 years? No, I do not. But still, 6 years today is a fairly good run for a replacement fuel pump. I wonder if in your case that internal valve component required staking? Clay/Lexi

[PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192]

Welp this topic brings up a very interesting point.  Failure of items due to ethanol.  I just had a mechanical pump fail on me right outside the grocery store.  Luckily O'Reilly 6 miles away had one last pump available.  I was able to swap them out with some cursing and get on my way.  What would cause a pump, which was only a year old, to suddenly fail?  Is ethanol that detrimental to rubber components?

The valves on the airtex replacement 1950s fuel pumps fail, not staked in properly so they come loose, or in my case the rubber part of the valves went hard. I swapped them for new ones and it worked fine. The diaphragm was untouched, still like new.

[Cadillac Jack 82]

I've had the same issue with my 1948 Buick Roadmaster.  Installed a new pump, it went dead in 3 months.  Its a shame that quality has reached a point where its non existent.

[Cadman-iac]

  TJ,

 I guess that since they have the ethanol-free stuff available at every pump at each of these stations that it must be ok to use if you're willing to pay the price. The fact that the nozzle will fit into the filler neck is another indication, as I recall when leaded fuel was still available the nozzle was too big to fit any vehicle that wasn't supposed to use it.
 Thanks for looking into it in your state.

 Rick

[Cadman-iac]

I've been in Florida for the past 14 years now, about 30 minutes from Tampa. Wawa gas stations here all serve ethanol free so I'm lucky to be able to get it. It's the E85 that is hard to come by here (my 2019 F150 5.0 is flex fuel and runs best on the E85), only Thornton's gas stations sell that and I have two near me compared to the dozens of other stations. When we had back-to-back hurricanes a few months ago, I had to put ethanol free in the truck mixed with probably 1/2 tank of E85 and it did fine - ethanol free was all you could find for a while (no one wanted to pay for it, and when they closed the pumps, they lead you to believe ALL gas is out at that pump, you had to look at the ethanol free pumps specifically to see if the price was still showing, meaning there was still some of it left in it to buy! Funny the things you have to go through in desperate times).

I've experienced way too many rubber part failures, dirty carbs and dirty fuel tanks to continue with ethanol gas in my classics and small engines so to me it is worth the expense to get the ethanol free AND stabil. I even keep an 8 gallon fuel pack of ethanol free on hand but will cycle it into a car after about 3-4 months to keep things fresh, that is if I don't use it in a small engine but now that it is getting "cold" out, I won't have to do yard work until April.

I noticed you wrote you're in Cochise county- I used to live down there - first when I was stationed in Ft Huachuca and then I moved down the road to Huachuca City. I really do miss it there; those great drives to Tucson, Bisbee and Tombstone being one thing. We actually did see snow once on Ft. Huachuca, I think it was 2006, the entire base shut down because no one knew how to drive in the stuff. I was an MP so I had to be out on the road, I had just come from living in New York so it was no big deal to me. Anyway, enough of the walk back in time, but time really does fly by.

 Lol!! Yeah, I've always had to laugh at people here whenever it snows, (which isn't very often). I grew up here, (since '68), and didn't get much experience driving in snow either, until I was stationed in Germany for 2 years, I got lots of experience then, in a duce-and-a half fuel tanker and a 5 ton wrecker.
 When I got back I was stationed at Fort Bliss in El Paso, and the first winter there was hilarious. Watching these cars with bald tires trying to get over the overpass above the train tracks and piling up at the bottom was priceless.
 Most people don't know where Fort Huachuca is unless they were stationed here, so whenever I explain where I'm at its usually "90 miles southeast of Tucson" and then they get it.

 Rick

[Cadman-iac]

Welp this topic brings up a very interesting point.  Failure of items due to ethanol.  I just had a mechanical pump fail on me right outside the grocery store.  Luckily O'Reilly 6 miles away had one last pump available.  I was able to swap them out with some cursing and get on my way.  What would cause a pump, which was only a year old, to suddenly fail?  Is ethanol that detrimental to rubber components?

 I've never had a mechanical pump go out due to ethanol, but I've had several of the old solenoid style AC Delco pumps go bad from it. I bought rebuild kits and went through 3 pumps that I used to use as backups in case the mechanical one failed, and every one was ruined again by the ethanol, so I gave up on those. I doubt you can even get an ethanol proof kit for one anyway because of how old they are. I think the pump number was an EP12, or something similar.
 Now that I'm installing a mechanical pump on my 88 Burb, I'm worried that it's gonna fail for one of two reasons, it's Chinese being the main reason, ethanol being the other.
 I still have a new mechanical pump for my 472 that I bought over 30 years ago when I rebuilt the engine, and I'm hoping that by the time I get around to actually using it that it's still going to work. It was a Napa pump, so I'm fairly confident that it was a good one.
 The one on the Burb is a Carter I got from rockauto made for a 72 Chevelle if memory serves.
 I hope you have better luck with your latest pump. If it's built to be disassembled for repair, you can easily check for the cause of failure, but if it's like most pumps it's crimped together and the only way to check it is to cut it apart, which negates rebuilding/repairing it.
 I really wish you could still get a pump that can be repaired, but even if you could, you probably couldn't get the parts to do it with.

 Rick

[Cadman-iac]

The valves on the airtex replacement 1950s fuel pumps fail, not staked in properly so they come loose, or in my case the rubber part of the valves went hard. I swapped them for new ones and it worked fine. The diaphragm was untouched, still like new.

Phil,
 Yours must have been a bolt-together pump.
 Where did you find parts to repair it with?

 Rick

[Cadman-iac]

I've had the same issue with my 1948 Buick Roadmaster.  Installed a new pump, it went dead in 3 months.  Its a shame that quality has reached a point where its non existent.

Tim,
 Isn't Chinese quality wonderful? That's another oxymoron like military intelligence or jumbo shrimp, laughable if not for the billions of wasted dollars on their crap and the frustration they cause.
 I really hope our manufacturing is brought back onshore, I'd gladly pay more for a quality product.

 Rick

[Lexi]

...I really wish you could still get a pump that can be repaired, but even if you could, you probably couldn't get the parts to do it with.

 Rick

I still got a number of bolt together cores if anyone is interested, from 1954 - 1958 if memory serves. Now and Then Automotive still sells rebuild kits. Clay/Lexi

[Cadman-iac]

I still got a number of bolt together cores if anyone is interested, from 1954 - 1958 if memory serves. Now and Then Automotive still sells rebuild kits. Clay/Lexi

 Yeah, I've got a small collection of old rebuildable fuel pumps from various makes, but I didn't look for a kit for any since I wasn't positive as to what any of them came off of specifically, and today's parts people only know what their computer tells them.
 I could have bought one from Summit Racing for an astronomical fee, but decided to try a Carter first. We'll see what happens.

 Rick

[TJ Hopland]

I did some more digging in the states website and found mention of I think the term was investigators (or maybe it was inspectors) and or their appointed agents and the words shall be charged with a misdemeanor (vs a felony) but nothing that I could find saying who these agents were.  Would they be local police?  Or State Patrol?  You would think they would have to be one or the other if charges are being filed. 

There was specifics for AV gas and offroad diesel but those were related to taxes which isn't the issue with non etahanol, its got the road tax on it in my state and I assume others too.   State patrol is who I see and have heard of going after the off road diesel but in all cases I have seen or heard of its got a commercial angle, its a big rig, its a lawn service or construction company that is picking up fuel for their equipment and then putting that fuel in their pickup instead of the more expensive road taxed stuff.   I remember being concerned about that when I bought one of my diesel Eldorados because it had the red dyed off road fuel in it.  Its dyed so that even if you use it up it still leaves stains in the filters.

I did read in the laws that there is some sort of tip line where people, maybe the FBO at an airport or gas station attendant can report misuse but again that only seems to pertain to the road tax issue.  The diesel being dyed is fairly easy to enforce because they don't have to catch you filling they just have to find it or evidence of it in your rig while its on a public road.  Av gas not being died I would think they would have to just about have to have one of these agents witness the whole process.  Av gas I don't think is a huge issue due to the higher cost and hassle involved for the average person but then again with how common it appears to be to have these on airport hangar condos where people store things like classic cars along with maybe even a plane who knows.....
   

Yes when unleaded became required is when they (the feds I assume) started standardized nozzle thing.  Unleaded rigs got that restrictor plate that would only accept 13/16" or smaller,  I want to say the nozzles are 3/4"?  Leaded was 7/8(14/16) so won't fit in a 13/16 hole.  With leaded being phased that 7/8 was sort of an orphan for may years.  I'm not sure if lead was completely gone yet when the ethanol thing came up in the mid 90's so it may not have really been an option at the time. 

If they did do the leaded nozzle thing at the time, lets say it was 1995 that would have caused a problem here in MN were the rule is 20 years old.  You could have had a 1975 car which was unleaded and had the restrictor plate that was 20 years old and did then qualify to use the non ethanol.  That problem would only get worse year to year because there would be more cars that would need modification or some sort of funnel adapters. 

There is also another twist.  At some point in the 2000's somebody somewhere in the USA decided that people with diesel cars (not trucks or other equipment) were not smart enough to not put gas in their cars so they 'standardized' that car diesel would use the old leaded nozzle size and the cars (VW was the biggest seller) would have a somewhat complex restrictor that will only accept the 7/8.  If you try to put something smaller in like the 3/4 it won't open the little internal door and let it in. You also can't use the more typical 1" to 1 1/4" nozzles found at the truck islands.

My first new VW diesel was a 2013 and it had it so it started sometime before that, I don't think it was too much earlier.  Typically what you see is if there are diesel pumps mixed in with the regular gas pumps those will have the 7/8 nozzle. Trucks and equipment don't have any sort of restrictor so they can still use them.  If there is a truck area those will have the larger and faster nozzles.  If there are not diesel pumps mixed in then you usually have to drive around the truck area and look for one with the smaller nozzle, there usually is one on an end.  VW did sell an adapter kit which was basically a funnel in a storage jar that included a pair of rubber gloves.  I think back in 2013 I had to use it one time for fuel and then I used it a few times for additives since you can't just poke the little flap open to dump stuff in the tank.     

[PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192]

Phil,
 Yours must have been a bolt-together pump.
 Where did you find parts to repair it with?

 Rick

I had an AC pump kit for a British car sitting on my shelf and the valves were the same size. Pure luck. I knew the diaphragm was OK because before I removed the pump I sucked the fuel up with a bulb pump on the outlet side of the fuel pump then reconnected the pipe to the carb and it worked fine. But when turned off and it had drained back I had to repeat the operation.

[Cadman-iac]

  TJ,

 I've always heard about using avgas in a vehicle for more power, and in recent years to keep from using ethanol fuel, but I've never tried to get any. Not having any reason to go to the airport and not knowing anyone with a plane I wouldn't know where to go to get it anyway. The legality was always another deterrent to trying too.

 I didn't see any signs on the ethanol-free pumps stating that you can't use it in a newer vehicle, and the fact that the nozzle fits into any vehicle leads one to believe it's not illegal, just expensive.
 I would think that if they didn't want it used in newer vehicles, the nozzles would have been made larger like the old leaded gas ones to prevent its use.
 
 I've heard horror stories about people putting gasoline in their diesel vehicles, but never heard of anyone putting diesel in their gasoline vehicles, probably because of the larger diesel nozzles.
 Of course it's possible to do either using fuel from a can, and I've heard of that before.
 
 Since I'm no longer running back and forth to work, I only have to fuel up about once every 2 months on average, unless I've got something to haul.
 
 The next time I go to the station I'll double-check for any labels or signage as to usage restrictions on the ethanol-free stuff. I'd like to keep using it if it's possible, (and I can afford it), I hate what ethanol does to everything it touches.

 Thanks for your input.

 Rick