Any years Ethanol free fuel

[LaSalle5019]

Do you have any experiences or impressions that the high octane cause higher heat of the engine?
I could imagine that the high explosive fuel today burns a lot faster and heater than the old fuel decades ago.
Did you change your ignition timing while using 100 octane more to a later point?
I am always not sure about the old engins with using the very high octante fuel, because they have a low copression rate and need normally only 78 octane fuel, which is not longer available anymore.
Regards Oliver

I do set the timing advanced quite a bit on my 1920s cars as they were designed for 40 or 50 octane fuels so just running close to 90 octane is a huge difference. On my 1939 LaSalle. I only run a few more degrees advanced since it was designed around 75 octane so 90ish isn't too much of a stretch. My 1960s car are fine using any anything from 90-100 with standard timing.

With higher octane, the gasoline requires a bit more heat/pressure to ignite so you want to light them off a bit earlier in older low compression engines to avoid late burning in the power and exhaust strokes which would overheat the engine. Retarding the timing is the wrong direction for that.

Going to your question of using 100LL AvGas in older cars or equipment. For a number of museum cars I managed, they use 100LL and run fine on it. That includes 13 cars from 1903 - 1937, single cylinder, twin cylinder, 4 cylinder, 6 cylinder, straight 8 and V8 cars. I've not had any problems. Most of the early cars have manually controlled spark timing so you just set it for best results. The later cars were designed when compression ratios and octane ratings were increased so the higher octane rating doesn't have much of an affect. The reason these cars might run AvGas all the time is they will sit for several years before being run again. I've run several of my cars on AvGas but that is usually just a tank full after they sat for a year or so. My generator and ditch pump seem to run fine on it with no issues but again, were designed for something close to 90 octane. I also used it in all the fire department equipment for a number of years when I was there since we would hardly ever use some of those items except for a monthly startup test. Solved a bunch of varnished up carbs and fuel tanks. I primarily advocate for AvGas when you either know something may sit for more than a year or are not sure how long the gasoline may sit before being used.

[TJ Hopland]

Guess its a good question for those following this thread.  How are the non ethanol pumps labeled in your state?  Just simply 'doesn't contain ethanol'?   That would be interesting if that was also the states where they don't require to label the pumps that do contain it.  In MN they have to label ethanol as such and its worded as 'contains up to %' which implies it may not contain any which is curious. I wonder if that was written that way in case there was a shortage of ethanol?  Any other states that label it also have that up to in their labels?

[Big Fins]

Here in Florida, of what I have seen in my purchases, it's labeled "Rec 90".

[TJ Hopland]

Rec, presumably standing for recreational?  No other info so you just have to know?  What other options do the stations you frequent offer?   Like is there a 90 with ethanol too?  Are the other grades noted as containing ethanol?

[dn010]

The typical wawa pumps here has three nozzles. One green (diesel), one red (regular/ethanol) and one blue (labeled "Ethanol-Free").

Regular with ethanol gives you the choice of 87, 89, or 93 at an ethanol-free pump. If you go to a pump that does not have ethanol-free it will have only two nozzles, Green for Diesel and Red for ethanol regular fuel and you get four choices at this pump: 87, 89, 91 or 93.

The red nozzle/regular ethanol nozzle does have a big sticker warning of fuel containing up to 10% ethanol on all pumps.

Ethanol-Free is 89. There is no notice or disclaimer at or on the pump when you select Ethanol-free.

[TJ Hopland]

Interesting, WaWa in Florida at least appears to offer the usual 3 grades of ethanol plus a mid grade of non.  In MN it appears as if if the station offers non ethanol it replaces the premium option.  One reason for this could be that many of our stations also offer E-85 so it could just be a practicality thing with the number of pumps and tanks required. 

I would say the most common pump I see has 2 hoses and 4 buttons.  How they divide it up seems to depend on the brand but most common is say the left hose has 3 buttons and you can select your usual 3 grades of ethanol blends.   The 4th button which has its own hose would then be E-85 or diesel.  One brand also does I think a E-15 mid grade so in that case the 3 buttons are regular, E-15, and mid then the one with its own hose is the non ethanol premium.

The hose nozzle color is a mess.  I don't know if some states mandate them, ones I have been to don't seem to.  For a while it seemed like maybe they were trying but then different brands seem to try and do their own thing.  Like for a while it seemed like green was diesel but then BP bought out Amoco and made their nozzles green to match their brand.     

[jwwseville60]

I use Stabil 360 and Marvels oil in my tanks for the winter, and half the suggested amount of Stabil for the rest of the year just to preserve gas better. Always fill up at a high volume gas station for fresh gas.

Marvels will help with separation, and if the gas goes a little stale it can help a lot with the gummy varnish issue.

Longer than 1 year storage... I recommend Avgas or leaded non ethanol race gas with a little Stabil and 8 ounces of Marvels per tank. This will give you 2-3 years of good gas. Ive tried it personally.

Liberty Gas lies! Ive tested 3 stations here in VA and all had ethanol for at least the first 3-6 gallons. Use a test tube with water in half of it. Shake. If it emulsifies then it has ethanol.

PURE Gas is 100% ethanol-free. Yay!

Cans of VP Racing "Octanium" have real T-lead if you need an octane boost. I used it in my drag car Charger with 12 to 1 compression and street gas 93. T-lead preserves gas as well. You can also get 5 gallon cans of 110 lead race fuel like Sunoco and add 1 gallon per tank for 1959-70 Caddies with 10-to-1 compression. Works like an Irish charm!

After 25 years of doing this finicky routine, Ive never had a tank of gas go stale.

[Cadman-iac]

Guess its a good question for those following this thread.  How are the non ethanol pumps labeled in your state?  Just simply 'doesn't contain ethanol'?  That would be interesting if that was also the states where they don't require to label the pumps that do contain it.  In MN they have to label ethanol as such and its worded as 'contains up to %' which implies it may not contain any which is curious. I wonder if that was written that way in case there was a shortage of ethanol?  Any other states that label it also have that up to in their labels?

Well, from memory, the regular fuel nozzles here I think are usually either red or black, (I'll need to double check that to be sure the next time I fill up), the diesel ones are definitely green, and the ethanol-free ones are definitely blue.
As for the labeling, they usually just say that the fuel contains up to 10% ethanol, and something about being oxygenated for the winter, or maybe it's for the summer, (another thing I need to double-check when I gas up again, I don't pay much attention to them unless I'm having to stand there and hold the nozzle as it's filling and then I look over the pump. Until they started selling ethanol-free I just grabbed the regular nozzle and shoved it in the tank and didn't pay any attention to the signage).

 That's another question, this oxygenated fuel, do they do that to the ethanol-free stuff too, or just the fuel with ethanol?

Rick

[Cadman-iac]

I use Stabil 360 and Marvels oil in my tanks for the winter, and half the suggested amount of Stabil for the rest of the year just to preserve gas better. Always fill up at a high volume gas station for fresh gas.

Marvels will help with separation, and if the gas goes a little stale it can help a lot with the gummy varnish issue.

Longer than 1 year storage... I recommend Avgas or leaded non ethanol race gas with a little Stabil and 8 ounces of Marvels per tank. This will give you 2-3 years of good gas. Ive tried it personally.

Liberty Gas lies! Ive tested 3 stations here in VA and all had ethanol for at least the first 3-6 gallons. Use a test tube with water in half of it. Shake. If it emulsifies then it has ethanol.

PURE Gas is 100% ethanol-free. Yay!

Cans of VP Racing "Octanium" have real T-lead if you need an octane boost. I used it in my drag car Charger with 12 to 1 compression and street gas 93. T-lead preserves gas as well. You can also get 5 gallon cans of 110 lead race fuel like Sunoco and add 1 gallon per tank for 1959-70 Caddies with 10-to-1 compression. Works like an Irish charm!

After 25 years of doing this finicky routine, Ive never had a tank of gas go stale.

 How much of the Marvel's do you add when you use it? Is it at the same ratio as the Stabil?

 Rick

[TJ Hopland]

Another catch to non ethanol is since it doesn't contain any alcohol if you do manage to get water in it somehow you generally have to add alcohol to get it out.  Do people remember the product 'heet'?  Before we had ethanol every place that sold fuel or automotive related stuff would have giant displays of that stuff especially in the winter.  Its still around but you kinda have to look for it and as far as water is concerned its basically the same as ethanol.  When added to the fuel it absorbs the water so it won't freeze and can then hopefully be carried through the system and burnt water and all.

I had forgot about this till I was just following up on another forum and thread about issues I was having with a small engine early this year.  Thinking it ended up being bad non ethanol gas.  Since it was a mild winter I didn't end up burning much for snow removal so some of it was still around when some of the summer engines came out and also had issues.  I actually ended up buying some HEET and running the stuff through what amounts to and old flathead tractor engine that doesn't really seem to care what you feed it, its like 5:1 compression when it was new.

In my case I think I got the water from the gas station, just low volume through the winter and maybe not as busy in the summer as maybe typical?  I dunno.  I have also seen signs of condensation in the tanks on the equipment especially if it sits in a place that has large temp swings.

[PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192]

Only ethanol fuel available here in Great Britain, a choice of 5% or 10% ethanol. Shell supreme 99 octane contains "up to 5%" and had no ethanol until a year or two back.

[TJ Hopland]

Very interesting to hear Great Britain has 5 and or 10%.  Do you know why or where it comes from?  And by why I mean do they say if its for emissions or to supplement or diversify the supply?  I guess I don't have any idea where most of the petrol comes from there.  I assume much if it is imported?  And is it imported as crude or a finished or closer to finished product?  I also assume that its like the USA and the ethanol is blended at the distribution centers before it heads out to the petrol stations?

[Cadman-iac]

  It almost sounds like they are adding the ethanol to take care of the problem of water in the distribution chain as a preemptive measure.

So if I'm running ethanol-free fuel and I manage to get some water in it from the station, or less likely from condensation, my options are to either add alcohol to it, or try to drain it out somehow.
Adding alcohol sounds like it negates any advantages of using ethanol-free fuel in the first place doesn't it?

Here's a question. If there's say a pint, or even a quart of water in the fuel, (supposing it can be determined exactly how much is in the tank), how much alcohol does it take to absorb or eliminate the water?  Does it go on a one to one ratio, or more alcohol, or less alcohol? What is the percentage, assuming you go this route instead of trying to drain it out?

Rick

[PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192]

Very interesting to hear Great Britain has 5 and or 10%.  Do you know why or where it comes from?  And by why I mean do they say if its for emissions or to supplement or diversify the supply?  I guess I don't have any idea where most of the petrol comes from there.  I assume much if it is imported?  And is it imported as crude or a finished or closer to finished product?  I also assume that its like the USA and the ethanol is blended at the distribution centers before it heads out to the petrol stations?

It's because of green policies our governments of both colours have been pursuing, they plant to legislate all internal combustion vehicle production by 2030. It's a crazy idea that is already unravelling.
Our last refinery has just shut or due to shut very soon. No future permits for oil and gas exploration in our North sea are being issued.
I don't know where the ethanol blending takes place.
The future here is grim.

[TJ Hopland]

I don't think intentional moisture absorption is even a slight factor in the decision process, its just a side effect that sometimes works out.  Note that when the alcohol absorbs the water is when more interesting corrosion things start really happening so this is why we say as long as you are burning it fairly quickly its fine as far as the equipment is concerned.  If its being burned and churned around there isn't really time to absorb that much moisture and there isn't time for it to really get started on what ever chemical processes are.  Let it sit...  well then stuff happens.

Early on when they started doing the blends there were tons of issues with moisture.  There were issues like they had only just started cracking down on leaky storage tanks so there were issues with ground water getting into the tanks at the gas stations.  There were also issues like apparently the transport tankers were washed out with water at the end of the day.   Things like that lead to much higher than expected moisture and ethanol content in the fuels by the time they got to the gas pumps.   After a few years the industry developed better processes to greatly reduce the chances of those issues so by the time it got rolled out nationwide most areas really didn't have those problems.

 

[Cadman-iac]

  Thanks TJ, I wasn't sure why it was added, but all the mentions of it attracting water got me to thinking about it.

 Rick

[Cadman-iac]

  So I just filled up the truck I had been running ethanol-free fuel in, but it was a 50/50 mix last time, so I wasn't sure if it would make much difference, but after checking the mileage, 333 miles this time, and 23.16 gallons, I  got 14.4 miles per gallon, up from 13.69 on straight regular ethanal fuel. This time around, I'm starting with a higher mix of ethanol-free, so I'm hoping the next fill-up will show even better mileage.

 I took a picture of the pump too, it's the latest newest version I guess, and it's showing the prices for everything in one place, which is really nice.
 The ethanol-free is 89 octane, and premium is at 91 octane, and are priced according.


 Rick

[TJ Hopland]

I'm gonna guess that pump has 3 hoses?  Or is diesel the only one that has its own?  And for signage whats in the photo is it?  Since one advertises non ethanol you just assume the others must have it but you don't know how much?  Also interesting to see that its still cheaper than premium but still cost more than the other 89 option.

Ethanol is less energy dense than gas so it does take more of it to do the same amount of work.  With only a 10% blend its a pretty minor difference but when you get to E85 its quite noticeable, you for sure have to fill up more often.  I don't remember the number but say its 20% less dense so you need 20% more.  I'm not sure if its the same in every state that has E85 but in mine somehow the price at the pump just happens to be that exact 20% less than regular gas so the cost per mile is the same you just have to fill up more often.   


And for the reason they put it in the gas its all in theory related to the environment. I don't think anyone argues that if you just choose to look at a fairly narrow section of the WHOLE chain that there are not environmental benefits.  You can look at just production and say ya or just the tailpipe emissions and say ya but where things come into question is if you look at the entire process is there a net gain for everyone?  Are we consuming more resources to produce the stuff than we are saving in the end?  And its such a long chain with so many involved its really hard to tell. 

[Cadman-iac]

I'm gonna guess that pump has 3 hoses?  Or is diesel the only one that has its own?  And for signage whats in the photo is it?  Since one advertises non ethanol you just assume the others must have it but you don't know how much?  Also interesting to see that its still cheaper than premium but still cost more than the other 89 option.

Ethanol is less energy dense than gas so it does take more of it to do the same amount of work.  With only a 10% blend its a pretty minor difference but when you get to E85 its quite noticeable, you for sure have to fill up more often.  I don't remember the number but say its 20% less dense so you need 20% more.  I'm not sure if its the same in every state that has E85 but in mine somehow the price at the pump just happens to be that exact 20% less than regular gas so the cost per mile is the same you just have to fill up more often.   


And for the reason they put it in the gas its all in theory related to the environment. I don't think anyone argues that if you just choose to look at a fairly narrow section of the WHOLE chain that there are not environmental benefits.  You can look at just production and say ya or just the tailpipe emissions and say ya but where things come into question is if you look at the entire process is there a net gain for everyone?  Are we consuming more resources to produce the stuff than we are saving in the end?  And its such a long chain with so many involved its really hard to tell.

 Yes, 3 hoses, far left is the green diesel nozzle, right next to it is the ethanol-free blue nozzle, and on the far right is the black ethanol fuels nozzle. I mainly wanted to get the prices in the picture with the octane ratings. Didn't think about getting the nozzles in the shot.

 Rick

[TJ Hopland]

That's the same layout I see a lot in my area with the 3 ethanol blends on the same hose.  E85, diesel, and non ethanol always have their own hoses.  Sometimes I think there is a hose for every option but it seems more common to have the 3 share one.  My guess is its lower initial cost and lower maintenance costs.