1960s Steel wheels & lug nuts - 68 Coupe DeVille

[chrisbutnut]

I need to replace my OEM steel wheels and lug nuts, as the original are rusted and have been on and off the car so many times over the life of the vehicle that the bolt holes and lug nuts themselves are worn out.  Any idea where to get replacements that match the originals?  They obviously need to fit correctly (and safely), and the OEM hub caps need to mount securely. 

[Big Fins]

Wondering if you couldn't just have the holes welded and then machined to mate the surface of the lugnut? It would be a lot cheaper than an OEM set of wheels.

[TJ Hopland]

Hopefully someone knows for sure but I think 68 may be the first year where the wheel more or less lasted till the end of the RWD cars?    Does the hubcap grab the very outer edge where the weights go? Or does it need a flat area further in?

[chrisbutnut]

I believe the hubcap grabs the very outer edge.

[TJ Hopland]

Again hopefully someone will know for sure but I think you may be able to use a wheel from most of the full size RWD cars through the end which was 96.  There were a few oddballs in the late 70's that used the smaller pattern on the full size but I think most were the 5 on 5.  The later you got the more chance of aluminum wheels as an option.  I'm thinking the 1/2 ton 2wd trucks would also be an option and even in the end which was around 2000 steel was still pretty common.   Station wagons were usually steel wheels till the round body in 91,

[Cadman-iac]

 If memory serves, your hubcaps grip the very outer lip of the wheels, which Cadillac extended farther than the rest of the GM lines, I'm guessing to keep people from using Cadillac hubcaps on other vehicles and thus being a theft deterrent.
  The half-ton truck wheels will fit perfectly over your discs and drums, but those do not have the extended lip for the hubcaps.
 I've used Cadillac wheels on my trucks without issue, but using truck wheels on your Cadillac will result in the hubcaps not fitting properly if at all.
 If you manage to get one to fit a truck wheel, if you corner hard and the wheel flexes, your caps will come off.

 I'm not positive about when Cadillac stopped using the extended lips on their wheels, but I do know that it was used at least through 1979.
 I had a 1988 Brougham years ago but I can't remember if it had the extended lip on the wheels. I think it did, but not sure.

 Rick

[TJ Hopland]

Interesting that maybe that lip changed. I would not think it would have since that is always where the weights fit. I do have a mid 90's truck but its 16" so I would not be able to test fit a Cad hubcap but I can try and remember to try and measure it.

[Cadman-iac]

  I'm not positive but I believe that when GM released the new C/K body trucks in 88 they changed the wheel bolt pattern to metric, making those wheels unusable on anything using a 5-on-5 pattern. They are just close enough that they will fit over the studs but the holes are not centered around the studs, so when the nuts are tightened they are only applying force around part of the wheels edge around the studs.
I know that the 6 lug wheels on the 4x4s were changed to metric so they won't fit earlier models.

The wheel weights that Cadillac used, (I think they are called "Cax" or something similar), were designed to accommodate the way Cadillac hubcaps attach, (which I also believe are the only ones that used this design). Chevrolet hubcaps gripped the wheel on the inside of the lip just under where the tire bead sits, and the weights sit just outside of the hubcap's outer edge. That's why these weights don't work on the Cadillac wheels. I've seen a few hubcaps that someone had modified to clear this type of weight by cutting the "fingers" off of the cap where the weight is so that they could get the cap to stay on.
This method works until the wheels are re-balanced and the weights are changed, then the cap would either have to be modified again eventually ruining the cap, and if too many of the fingers are removed the caps are more likely to come off anyway from the lack of grip.
 I've also seen hubcaps bent by tire jockeys trying to get one to fit over standard wheel weights.

 The difference between the Cadillac wheel lip and the others is only something like an 1/8" or so but it's important if you want to use the original hubcaps.
 If I can remember to check tomorrow, I'll measure both types of wheels for the lip dimensions and report it here.

 Rick

[Big Fins]

There were a few years in the 60's where Lincoln also used the CAX weights and had rim lips just as Cadillac did. What the bolt pattern was, I don't remember. Because Lincoln also started using disc brakes in the later 60's models, they may be interchangeable without worrying if you will tear the calipers apart. I haven't done any Lincoln work for years to really remember details.

[Cadman-iac]

  Thanks for that John, I wasn't aware any other manufacturer used that type of wheel/ hubcap arrangement. I've never messed with any old Lincolns, and probably won't ever get the chance.


So here's the difference between a truck wheel and the Cadillac wheel.
The lip on the Cadillac measured from the face of the wheel outward is right at 1/2".
The truck wheel lip measures 3/8".

BUT, because they used thicker steel on the truck wheels, when viewed from the front, (as if looking at the tire tread), both appear to be the same width. And there may be some slight differences in manufacturing tolerances, so your best method for checking if it's usable for your Cadillac is to measure the outside face of the wheel, looking at it from the lug nut side.

Here's a few pictures for reference.

This is a 63 Cadillac wheel.


This is a mid 70's truck wheel.


This is looking at the face of each with the truck wheel on the left.


And this is looking at the lips from where the tire sits. The Cadillac wheel is on the left here.


Rick

[TJ Hopland]

I don't think the 2wd 1/2 ton trucks changed till they ditched the 5 lug and old school spindle setup around 2000 in favor of what was more or less the same hub assembly used on the 4x4's just in some cases didn't have the hole for a CV and in other cases had a dummy shaft so it was literally the same hub. 

If the extra depth is a thing I wonder if that is maybe to let the flange of the hubcap to rest on the rim rather than having the 'fingers' be what bottoms out?

I looked at what I have accessible at the moment and I don't seem to have anything that would help with this discussion.  I know I have several wheels from the 80's and 90's just can't easily get to any of them at the moment.   

[Cadman-iac]

  Not sure of the exact reason why they used the very outer lip, other than speculation that it was a dual purpose, one being to hide as much of the wheel as possible behind the hubcaps, and two being a theft deterrent because the caps either won't fit or won't stay on any wheels with a narrower lip.
If someone stole a Cadillac hubcap and tried to use it on a Chevrolet for example, if it went on at all it wouldn't take much for it to fall off.
Only someone with another Cadillac would benefit from stealing the hubcaps from a Cadillac, (or the thief that sells them).

I don't remember the specifics on what GM did to the truck wheels from 88 and up, other than that the ones that came off of one didn't fit anything earlier.
Unfortunately I don't remember what year of truck we tried using the wheels from, it may very well be one from after 2000, but I haven't parted out any of the 88 and up body styles. My neighbor was trying to get some to fit on his older truck and it wouldn't work, and I didn't ask him what year they were from.
They were also aluminum wheels, which is why he wanted them.

  Rick

[chrisbutnut]

Thanks guys! 

[Cadman-iac]

Thanks guys! 

 No problem, I hope this helps.

[TJ Hopland]

I was just watching a video from I think hes called something like rare classics and history on a 69 Deville and he mentioned a Cadillac exclusive of the rims having a bead on both sides.  Seems like I heard that once before, perhaps in another one of his videos.  He had a picture but I could not tell what was different.   Isn't the bead the vertical surface on both the tire and rim?  Is there a horizontal component to it too?  Is the bead just a universal term for the whole tire to rim interface?  And how could other makes only have one?

Anyone know what he is talking about?  He does kinda seem to reach for and stretch some information a bit but it seems like overall what he talks about is based on some truth so I doubt its just something kinda made up.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

The bead you are referring to is the pressed ridge just inwards from the outside of the rim that stops the tyre from falling inwards as air pressure goes down in a tyre deflation.

This is called the safety bead, and initially was only on the outside of the rims, but soon was pressed into the inside side of the rim.

Bruce.

[bcroe]

I need to replace my OEM steel wheels and lug nuts, as the original are rusted and have been on and off the car so many times over the life of the vehicle that the bolt holes and lug nuts themselves are worn out.  Any idea where to get replacements that match the originals?  They obviously need to fit correctly (and safely), and the OEM hub caps need to mount securely. 

I had that problem on my first car to pass 100,000 miles. 
My tire store showed the wheel stud holes were all reamed
out, replacements needed.

I was quite unhappy about this, as there was otherwise
nothing wrong with my rims.  I soon concluded the
damage occured with the so called mechanics using an
air wrench to install them, with torque set way too
high.  So for the future I found an extra rim (common
with snow tires in those days) and always took pairs
of rims to the store for new tires to be mounted.  I
took them home and carefully put them on an axle by
hand.  This was eventually repeated to get a complete
new set.  The damage was eliminated, I never need to
replace rims even at 300,000 miles.  Sometimes at 4
decades or so I will have somewhat rusty rims sand
blasted and repainted. 

No tire store is allowed to touch my cars.  Bruce Roe

[chrisbutnut]

I had that problem on my first car to pass 100,000 miles. 
My tire store showed the wheel stud holes were all reamed
out, replacements needed.

I was quite unhappy about this, as there was otherwise
nothing wrong with my rims.  I soon concluded the
damage occured with the so called mechanics using an
air wrench to install them, with torque set way too
high.  So for the future I found an extra rim (common
with snow tires in those days) and always took pairs
of rims to the store for new tires to be mounted.  I
took them home and carefully put them on an axle by
hand.  This was eventually repeated to get a complete
new set.  The damage was eliminated, I never need to
replace rims even at 300,000 miles.  Sometimes at 4
decades or so I will have somewhat rusty rims sand
blasted and repainted. 

No tire store is allowed to touch my cars.  Bruce Roe

I'd love to find replacement rims that will work, however I'm concerned that I'm not going to be able to find anything that will work with the stock OEM hubcaps.  Not sure yet what the solution it.  I sure don't want the hubcaps flying off when I'm driving the car.  It's hard enough to find parts for the 68s.   

[Cadman-iac]

Chris,

  Where are you located?
  If I remember correctly, the 68 models were the first to have disc brakes, but I'm not sure if that was standard equipment for all or an option like it was for Chevrolet.
I know that the 69 model it was standard for all.

Along that line of thought, if it was an option, I'm wondering if those that still had drum brakes received the old-style drum wheels, or if all cars got the new wheels.
So I need to ask, does your car have drum or disc brakes?

If it has drums, you have a much larger range of years to get your wheels from.

Disc brake wheels will fit over drum brakes without a problem, however, drum brake wheels will not fit over disc brakes.

 I have a few sets, but I'm not sure of their condition. I picked through my collection to find 2 sets for my car trailer when the chrome wheels that were on it began to peel. One set on the ground and the other as spares. I went with the Cadillac wheels because I had 2 matching sets of hubcaps and they looked better than the chrome wheels did.

Good luck with finding a set, I hope this helps you narrow down your search some.

  Rick

[Lexi]

No tire store is allowed to touch my cars.  Bruce Roe

Amen. I will bring my wheels in, off car, for a tire change, balance, but they don't touch them on the car.
Don't trust them. Clay/Lexi